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Tony Wheeler
05-03-2010, 09:58 PM
Sorry if this is a stupid question: hasn't Canada only earned one spot for ladies at Worlds 2011?
(Phaneuf 5th + Samson 29th = 34 = 1 spot)

If a skater finishes below 16th in the standings but qualifies to the free skate, they earn 16 points. If they didn't qualify to the free skate, they earned 18 points (in pairs and singles skating). With the qualifying rounds, that will probably change to where skaters not making it out of qualifying earn 20 points.

sequinsgalore
05-03-2010, 10:13 PM
If a skater finishes below 16th in the standings but qualifies to the free skate, they earn 16 points. If they didn't qualify to the free skate, they earned 18 points (in pairs and singles skating). With the qualifying rounds, that will probably change to where skaters not making it out of qualifying earn 20 points.

Ok, that is a new rule, right? Before the placement equaled the points earned?

HisWeirness
05-03-2010, 10:17 PM
Ok, that is a new rule, right? Before the placement equaled the points earned?
It's not a new rule, it has at least been in effect since the last ISU congress in 2008 (and possibly before that since it is not shown in the 2008 rules as being a new addition).

Placement only equals points earned if you finish in the top 16 after the free skate. It's rule 378 in the ISU Figure Skating rules.

ETA: just looked up the 2004 (http://www.iceskating.org.uk/officials/index.php?q=officials/ISUspecialregmanuals) and 2006 rules (http://www.iceskating.org.uk/node/1487) and they were the same regarding points earned.

Tony Wheeler
05-03-2010, 10:18 PM
Ok, that is a new rule, right? Before the placement equaled the points earned?

No, not new at all. It's been around for a long time. I have no idea of the exact year, someone else could probably help out there. It was probably in the mid-90's, though. Don't quote me :)

If you finish in the top 16, the amount of points you earn still does equal your placement. It's just anything below that does not.

ETA: Looking over past results quickly, I'd make a guess that it started between the 1998 and 1999 seasons, when the qualifying round started counting towards the first part of the competition. The Ukrainian men in 1998 finished 4th and 9th at Worlds, but were able to send 3 men to the 1999 Worlds, as an example.

Also, I've been on FSU an awful long time and I recall the discussions way back in 2001 after the Worlds about how China was able to just barely squeak in three entries to the 2002 Olympics in the mens competition. The results for the two highest men at 2001 Worlds? 6th and 7th = the 13 that we still use today..

Tony Wheeler
05-03-2010, 10:43 PM
The number of skaters a country can enter in an event at the World Championships and Olympic Games will no longer be based on the results of the country's best placing skater in each event. In the future the number of skaters a country can enter will be based on the overall results from all that country's skaters in the previous World Championships. Each country will continue to be allowed at least one entry in each event.

From Ice Skating International, summary of the 1996 ISU Congress. So between the 1996 and 1997 seasons.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:O3wej0hT6nUJ:www.iceskatingintnl.co m/archive/rules/isuac96a.htm+1998+isu+congress&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

gkelly
05-03-2010, 10:43 PM
I really like your idea of an "A" score (or ISU ranking) rather than the direct entries based on the previous Worlds placements.

Yes, me too. Plus it would be simpler to describe and implement.


No, not new at all. It's been around for a long time. I have no idea of the exact year, someone else could probably help out there. It was probably in the mid-90's, though. Don't quote me :)

Late 90s, as you note in your ETA.

The points for placements didn't start until 1997-98 (placement points at 1997 Worlds determined spots for 1998 Worlds and Olympics; also 1997 Euros and Junior Worlds for 1998 Euros and Junior Worlds respectively). Before that, through the mid-90s, only the highest-placed skater's results counted (3 the next year for a medal, 2 for top 10, otherwise 1).

The point cutoffs the first year or two of the point system were harsher than they are now, they included the placements for all three members of a three-person team, and withdrawals earned as many points as bad placements.

After Urmanov won the LP at 1997 Worlds and then withdrew, losing the Russian men a spot for the next year even though Yagudin and Kulik finished 3rd and 5th, the calculations were adjusted for 1998-99 and following.

HisWeirness
05-03-2010, 10:47 PM
Yes, me too. Plus it would be simpler to describe and implement.
"simpler to describe and implement" and "ISU" never seem to go together :rofl:

barbk
05-04-2010, 12:08 AM
I really hope everyone is thinking through these changes -- this is the last chance for an ISU Congress to specify the selection criteria for Sochi -- and Russia in particular has a lot of young skaters that I hope don't end up getting locked out because of requirements that entries be determined based on something that happens before they're eligible to go to senior worlds.

Polymer Bob
05-04-2010, 01:34 AM
I seem to remember reading about a proposal to limit the penalty of an underrotation, so an underrotated triple would be worth more than a good double. Was this in the ISU bulletin?

HisWeirness
05-04-2010, 03:00 AM
I seem to remember reading about a proposal to limit the penalty of an underrotation, so an underrotated triple would be worth more than a good double. Was this in the ISU bulletin?
No. Nothing about underrotations is included in the proposals for the Congress.

piano18
05-04-2010, 03:05 AM
Well, as long as theres no proposal to include that ridiculous "intermediate score" rule for underrotations, yay!

Markulliz
05-04-2010, 03:03 PM
Two quads for men in SP,:lol: who is going vote for this, when only a few skaters going for one quad in SP NOW.

ISU has to fix ONE problem first, so more skaters will try to do at least ONE quad in SP, may be make is as required element for senior men along with 3A. Skaters have to leard quads the same way they learn triples, spins, footwork, why not to encourage skaters.
At this moment it sounds like ISU doesn't know what they doing with men, sounds really stupid.

flyingsit
05-04-2010, 03:39 PM
By functionally eliminating one of the footwork sequences, they are by default raising the value of quads (all jumps really) in the SP. There are very few skaters who can get level 4 footwork and thereby make up the difference between 3lutz/flip and 4toe, and taking away that opportunity to gain those points will push the quad-ers higher in the standings.

Ziggy
05-04-2010, 03:41 PM
By functionally eliminating one of the footwork sequences, they are by default raising the value of quads (all jumps really) in the SP. There are very few skaters who can get level 4 footwork and thereby make up the difference between 3lutz/flip and 4toe, and taking away that opportunity to gain those points will push the quad-ers higher in the standings.

:mad: :angryfire

gkelly
05-04-2010, 04:09 PM
ISU has to fix ONE problem first, so more skaters will try to do at least ONE quad in SP, may be make is as required element for senior men along with 3A. Skaters have to leard quads the same way they learn triples, spins, footwork, why not to encourage skaters.

Because it takes more than just good technique and hard work to master quads and triple axels. Some otherwise decent skaters just don't have the genetic athleticism to jump high enough to rotate that many times in the air.

Required elements should be things that everyone at a given level is expected to do.

When enough skaters can do an element that it's no longer cutting edge, then it makes sense to allow it as an option for a required element.

But if it's something that only 10 or 20 skaters a year will ever have the genetic gifts to accomplish, you'll kill incentive for boys who don't have those specific gifts to stay in the sport if they're doomed to failure the minute they reach senior level.