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oubik
05-03-2010, 11:57 AM
Second Step Sequence not Called in FS

That is a very very bad move.

The fact both step sequences had levels meant the guys were doing something akin to figures. Now we're going to be back to one of the step sequences being three turns>toe-steps>hops>three-turns again. :wall:



Can we call it Plushy rule?:dog:

skatefan
05-03-2010, 11:59 AM
But jump sequences still only get 80% of their combined base value right?
As I have read it, yes. But by classing the half loop as a jump it now becomes a three jump combination rather than a sequence so would receive the x1.1 bonus. Skaters can still do jump sequences but not with a half loop - they would have to use, for example, a mazurka to link two jumps. I think.

Artifice
05-03-2010, 12:10 PM
This actually makes things more complicated while at the same time some hard tricks (level for spirals and 2nd step sequence) are no longer rewarded... Strategy will become the rule more than ever...

They are giving back power to judges that they purposely removed in order to make the TES more objective. That doesn't make sense.

oubik
05-03-2010, 12:24 PM
This one reason for cost cuttings at ISU Championships making me :rofl: whole day:

The Council furthermore took into account that the ISU is giving substantial financial support to other ISU Events, such as the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating and ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating where lower level competitors have a chance to compete internationally at favourable financial conditions.

Please, ask Clara Peters, how many GP invitations she has recieved to date as a lower level competitor having chance to compete internationally at favourable financial conditions. :wall::duh:

gosia.douceur
05-03-2010, 12:31 PM
The Council furthermore took into account that the ISU is giving substantial financial support to other ISU Events, such as the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating and ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating where lower level competitors have a chance to compete internationally at favourable financial conditions.
:rofl: :duh: Oh boy!

floskate
05-03-2010, 01:00 PM
Incredible thread which I have read with interest and not a little confusion. Many thanks to our CoP experts for breaking it all down into understandable English for us mere mortals :respec:

One question regarding the half loop issue; is it only the half loop that would be recognised? What about a 1-foot axel-3s-2t combo? Or 1ft ax-3s-3t even. (Never done but feasible on paper.)

gkelly
05-03-2010, 01:26 PM
One question regarding the half loop issue; is it only the half loop that would be recognised? What about a 1-foot axel-3s-2t combo? Or 1ft ax-3s-3t even. (Never done but feasible on paper.)

Those would always have been combos and gotten full value, no sequence penalty.

They haven't been done because they're harder and require more unusual skills than, say, 3S+2T+2T while earning fewer points (1A is worth less than 2T).

1A+2S is not unknown, although still very rare, in mid-level competitions (novice and below) by skaters who don't do triples.

Marco
05-03-2010, 02:08 PM
So when they mean "second step sequence" does it mean the choreographer must now put all the steps and turns into the first sequence that comes in the program and just put in the simplest turns to maximise speed and impact for the other sequence to close the program?

What if someone wants to ease through the first step sequence and finish with a difficult one?

HisWeirness
05-03-2010, 02:43 PM
Just playing devils advocate here, but if they are counting the half loop (euler) as a single jump, then what happens to any single revolution jump that you so often see in a footwork segment, or as a move in the field? Would this then be counted as a jumping pass? :confused:
The half loop is only a listed jump (able to be used in a combo/jump pass) in the proposals when it is done in combination or sequence with other jumps. So, the way I read the rules is that a half loop done in footwork would not take up a jumping pass because the skater is not attempting a combination or sequence.

But jump sequences still only get 80% of their combined base value right?
Yup. No change proposed to that rule.

This one reason for cost cuttings at ISU Championships making me :rofl: whole day:

The Council furthermore took into account that the ISU is giving substantial financial support to other ISU Events, such as the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating and ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating where lower level competitors have a chance to compete internationally at favourable financial conditions.
To include the Senior GP in that "reason" is :rofl:. Senior GP is only for the topmost group of elite international skaters.

Artifice
05-03-2010, 02:45 PM
Are there any change on spins ?

flyingsit
05-03-2010, 02:59 PM
Juniors have the choice of doing double or triple of the specified takeoff (rotates among loop, flip, or lutz).

Should the same be true for seniors? That would represent a step backward in jump difficulty, since they are currently required to do a triple (or quad, for the men) as the solo jump.

I would like to see the jump requirements amended to require both an edge-takeoff triple and a toe-takeoff triple in the senior short program (the axel requirement would remain and be separate from this). Or maybe an edge and a toe takeoff, either double or triple.

So instead of 3flip-3toe and 3lutz, skaters might attempt 3flip-3loop. Or instead of 4toe-3toe, we might see 4toe-2loop. For the women's event, maybe 3sal-3toe instead of 3lutz-2toe.

Domshabfan
05-03-2010, 03:13 PM
there should be a prposal to limit the number of proposals from next year onwards. :shuffle:

Ziggy
05-03-2010, 03:17 PM
I guess you and bek really see half loop as a jump. I don't.

But it is a jump.

And even if you don't see it as a jump, in a jump sequence you perform a number of steps between the two jumps.

This enables you to regain balance, get more momentum, build speed, etc.

This is not the case when you are performing a half-loop in-between.

HisWeirness
05-03-2010, 03:20 PM
Are there any change on spins ?
Let's see...

Singles

267. This proposal removes the language in the sit spin position definitions that the "lower part of the buttocks not higher than the upper part of the knee of the skating leg" and adds that the upper part of the skating leg "at least" (new part in quotes) parallel to the ice. So, this is just reducing the sit spin position definition to have the upper part of the skating leg at least parallel to the ice instead of including the "buttocks" part.

This proposal also adds to the rules that "A difficult change of position counts as a difficult spin variation."

Also added (added part in bold):
If the spinning centers (before and after the change of foot) are too far apart and the criteria of “two spins” is fulfilled (there is a curve of exit after the first part and the curve of entry into the second part), only the part before the change of foot will be called and considered for Levels features.
This change is a part of an overall effort by the technical committees to have "botched" elements no longer be given 0 credit but for the skaters to get credit (base values, levels) for what was done before the error.

(added part in bold)
Spin in one position and (in Singles) Flying spin (which means a spin with a flying entrance and no change of foot and/or position): intermediate positions are allowed, counted in the total number of revolutions required by the Rules, but are not valid for Level features.
In spins in one position and flying spins the concluding upright position at the end of the spin (final wind-up) is not considered to be another position independent of the number of revolutions, as long as in such a final wind-up no Level feature is executed (change of edge, variation of position etc.).

Technical Committee reasoning for the Proposal 267 changes:
to delete the requirements to the sit position that will be fulfilled automatically with the upper part of the skating leg parallel to the ice or even directed “upwards”; not to count as a new position simple upright spins even with more than 3 revolutions; also clarifications.


268. Singles Short Program. Slight changes to the specific spins required in certain years for the Junior SP. Specifically requiring that the flying spin be a flying sit or flying camel in certain seasons.

269. Singles Short Program.
Flying spin definition change (in bold): Senior: Any type of flying spin is permitted with landing position different than in the Spin in one position.

For Senior Men, the spin with only one change of foot definition was modified: The Competitor is free to must choose either the camel position or the sit position to be executed, but this position must be different from the landing position of the Flying spin.
If in Senior Men the landing position of the Flying spin is the same that in the Spin in one position, the last performed of these two spins will not be counted, but will occupy a spin box.

270. Singles Free Skating. Minimum number of required revolutions.
These minimum number of required revolutions must be counted from the entry of the spin until its exit (except final wind-up in Spins in one position and Flying spins). This just reflects the change made in 267.

Pairs

272. Senior Short Program now has 7 instead of 8 required elements. Remove pair combination spin from required elements for 2010-11 season. No solo spin (SBS) combination in 2011-12. Pair combination spin and SBS solo pairs spin alternate seasons as required elements in the Senior Short Program. Similar change for the Junior Short Program as well.

273. Short Program. The solo spin combination in the Short Program must have at least 2 revolutions in two basic positions.

Ziggy
05-03-2010, 03:25 PM
Why would anyone bother to use up the half loop in a 3-jump combo? A something-2t-2t would be worth more, presumably.

Because it is not physically possible to perform a 3toe/2toe/3salchow combination.


Just playing devils advocate here, but if they are counting the half loop (euler) as a single jump, then what happens to any single revolution jump that you so often see in a footwork segment, or as a move in the field? Would this then be counted as a jumping pass? :confused:

Other non-listed jumps remain non-listed jumps.


This one reason for cost cuttings at ISU Championships making me :rofl: whole day:

The Council furthermore took into account that the ISU is giving substantial financial support to other ISU Events, such as the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating and ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating where lower level competitors have a chance to compete internationally at favourable financial conditions.

Please, ask Clara Peters, how many GP invitations she has recieved to date as a lower level competitor having chance to compete internationally at favourable financial conditions. :wall::duh:

I can't believe they've actually had the nerve to write that. Assholes. :mad:


So when they mean "second step sequence" does it mean the choreographer must now put all the steps and turns into the first sequence that comes in the program and just put in the simplest turns to maximise speed and impact for the other sequence to close the program?

What if someone wants to ease through the first step sequence and finish with a difficult one?

Then they are in no luck. :P

Same as ice dancers who would prefer their transitional lifts to be performed at the beginning of the program.