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judgejudy27
04-23-2010, 10:18 PM
Out of Lilia Podkopayeva, Shannon Miller, and Svetlana Khorkina who do you believe had the best career. Not neccessarily who you believe is the best gymnast of the 3 but which one had the best career.

bek
04-23-2010, 10:22 PM
Khorkina
Lilia
Miller

Part of my feelings is based on the fact that I feel Khorkina lost AA Gold in 2000 due to some really unfair circumstances.

(I don't think Miller's case is the same because it was ridiculous that the Unified Team couldn't replace Rosa with Gutsu if they so wanted too. Gutsu was only being punished for having the misfortune to compete on the Unified Team to begin with.

Buzz
04-23-2010, 10:59 PM
Khorkina, if only because she stayed in the sport the longest. But they were all great gymnasts in they day. :)

BigB08822
04-23-2010, 11:50 PM
Miller edges it out, for me. I know it sucked for Khorkina in 2000 but she not only missed vault but then fell on her specialty. You can blame it on the vault mishap but why? She should have shaken it off and if there was ANY event she could hit after a fall it should be her best event, right? Besides, she struggled on vault at the Olympics, taking fall after fall in practices. It was a SHOCK how she nailed the vault in team finals. I can't be comfortable feeling sure she would have hit vault if it was measured correctly.

Miller was robbed of the 92 Gold, IMO. It isn't even because they replaced Galieva with Gutsu which WAS backhanded to me. It was because Gutsu got a huge gift on floor and I felt Miller's vault was a 10 if you compare it to some of the other vaults that scored 9.950 in the competition. This has gone back and forth over the years though so I will move on. She got her Olympic gold with the team and on beam. Khorkina got hers on bars. Miller has the 5 medals from Barcelona and 2 from Atlanta. Her World medal haul is huge, 2 AA golds, world titles also on bars, beam and floor. The only thing she ever lacked was a vault medal.

Khorkina did really well at Worlds with 3 AA titles and 5 titles on bars but she only had one other title which was on vault. At the Olympics she only ever won bars and one medal on floor and then in the AA. She didn't show that she could consistently win medals across all the events. Miller won world titles on 3 different events and Oympic medals on 3 different events (plus AA). This is where I give Miller the edge, I also think Miller had MUCH stiffer competition.

Pod has what neither does, AA Olympic gold, but she doesn't have the longevity. She could have beaten them both by sticking around and dominating for another year or two.

I'm sorry but I wont factor in European titles or medals because Miller did not have the opportunity to compete and there is no "equal" competition like 4CC in figure skating.

So if I break it down without including team medals since we are thinking of their accomplishments on an individual level:

Miller:
Olympics:
92 AA silver
92 beam silver
92 floor bronze
92 bars bronze
96 beam gold

Worlds:
91 bars silver
93 bars gold
93 AA gold
93 floor gold
94 AA gold
94 beam gold

Khorkina:
Olympics:
96 bars gold
2000 bars gold
2000 floor silver
2004 AA silver

Worlds:
95,96,97,99,2001 bars gold (5)
97,2001,2003 AA gold (3)
2001 gold vault
97 silver beam, floor
94 silver ub, vault
99, 2001 bronze floor

Khorkina has a boat load of World medals.

It just depends what you value. I almost wish I could vote for both of them.

judgejudy27
04-24-2010, 12:05 AM
I think Lilia was on her way to the best career of the 3 had it not been for her injury that forced her to end her career prematurely.

I actually thought Shannon didnt deserve her 93 World AA title at all with her big mistake on her beam dismount. Gogean and Lysenko should have both beaten her that year. I also broke down the scores per event and I still feel that way. She was also lucky it was such a weak field that year, which allowed her to win the AA even with a big mistake, as well as being the favorite to win on every event and winning on bars and floor. There is hardly any other year she could have won golds in anything other than beam and maybe the AA even at her best, and the AA certainly not with her performance that year in any field other than that years. Basically any other year with blowing her routine in beam finals and making a big mistake in the AA she would have left without an individual medal, but since it was such an incredibly weak year she is able to win bars and floor (events she would normally never win) and still win the AA with a mistake that in the 92 or 96 Olympic AAs would have left her in 9th or 10th around. So all in all I look at her success from the 93 Worlds which added a great deal to her overall career achievements with a grain of salt. If one wants to talk about stiff competition the 93 Worlds was as shallow as it ever got, and the 94 Worlds was only a marginal improvement.

As for the 92 AA I never could decide how I felt that should have gone. I actually think Boginskaya was underscored for once though. Gutsu was overmarked on floor but undermarked on beam. Miller was undermarked on vault but overmarked on floor and beam I thought, so I am not sure I had her beating Gutsu, and I am not sure if I even had Gutsu and Miller as the top 2 for sure either. I also thought the 3 way tie for bronze on floor was bogus and neither Gutsu or Miller deserved to medal in floor finals as Milo, Onodi, Bontas, and Zmeskal all had much better floor sets than Miller while Gutsu made that big mistake on the double layout yet again.

I voted for Khorkina. She won the World AA 3 times plus an Olympic AA silver, in addition to the European AA 3 times and European Cup 1 other time, so that trumps both Shannon and Lilia as far as the AA goes. She had the best longevity by far too. Her total stash of floor medals is superior to either Lilia or Miller on that event, though my personal opinion was Lilia was by far the better floor worker at her best, I made this thread about career achievements. On beam she has achieved less than Miller or Lilia. On bars she has obviously achieved far more than either Lilia or Shannon on any event. She is probably considered the greatest and most dominant bars worker in history, winning so many titles there even while having to compete against a group of amazing Chinese bar workers. On vault she won a World title to match Lilia, while Shannon has no World or Olympic medals there. So I think overall she has easily had the best career, in fact the only area she is less successful than Lilia or Shannon is on beam.

bek
04-24-2010, 12:43 AM
Miller edges it out, for me. I know it sucked for Khorkina in 2000 but she not only missed vault but then fell on her specialty. You can blame it on the vault mishap but why? She should have shaken it off and if there was ANY event she could hit after a fall it should be her best event, right? Besides, she struggled on vault at the Olympics, taking fall after fall in practices. It was a SHOCK how she nailed the vault in team finals. I can't be comfortable feeling sure she would have hit vault if it was measured correctly.



So your saying that Khorkina's mindset going into bars would have been the same with a hit vault as it was with a messed up vault? Because in the end that's the point. She was struggling with that move in practice, and Khorkina went into bars completely devestated. Thinking that her entire dream of All Around Gold was gone. She wasn't in the mood or mindset to fight. And the fact is a huge factor her mindset was the way it was because someone else tampered with the equipment on vault. There's a good chance that if the vault setting had been correct that Khorkina would have been able to go into that bars routine fighting, just like she fought and hit a spectacular floor routine in the first rotation.

Khorkina just might have messed up her vault without the set up being wrong. But she did hit that vault in team finals, and I believe in prelims too. So its not like Khorkina was incapable of hitting in competition. And the point is that the misplaced setting, stacked the deck against Khorkina hitting the vault.

We will never know if Khorkina would have won or not, its possible she wouldn't have won. But I think Khorkina would have. Its not like Khorkina had never delivered in a major All Around competition before. She managed too numerous times in her career. And people forget that Khorkina started out the competition completely on fire, hitting her floor routine better than she did in prelims.

We will never know what happened, but she had the basic right to the equipement being properly done, and to have her mindset in competition being only based on her actions and not because someone else stacked the vault deck against her and others. Shannon and Lilia got the right to compete on correct equipement, Khorkina did not in 2000. It was an unjustice to all of those girls, and to say it wasn't ,or that the competition wasn't tainted is just wrong. Khorkina was a devestated athlete going into that bars routine, and she was devestated due to something that wasn't even her fault.

The point is for me, Khorkina doesn't have an AA OGM. But I can't blame her for not having it considering what went down in that competition. Neither Shannon or Lilia had to compete in that kind of circumstance.

judgejudy27
04-24-2010, 01:39 AM
Well I dont credit Khorkina for having won an AA gold either. I voted for her just since I figure her career is the best of these 3 even without it. She might have fallen on bars anyway for all we know, she did in team finals after all. The falls for the favorites were contagious that night anyway as Zamo, Karpenko, Yang Yung, and Lobaznyuk can all atest to. I wish Produnova had not been pulled for the very overrated, sloppy, and overscored Zamolodichkova (we all know that is what really happened, the whole too injured to compete when she came back and did event finals was a bunch of BS). I would have loved to have seen her win that night and I think she definitely could have.

I forgot to mention I thought it was wrong Khorkina was taken out of vault finals for Zamo (again what I am sure is what really happened despite the story). If someone was taken out for Zamo it should have been Lobaznyuk. I am sure Khorkina would have atleast medaled in vault finals even if her 2nd vault wasnt as strong.

BigB08822
04-24-2010, 02:35 AM
Bek, who said that what happened with the vault wasn't wrong? No one thinks that! I was simply saying that Khorkina was one of the best competitors out there and she missed on an event that was not set up wrong. She should have been able to compose herself and hit. If she had done that, she would have had a redo on vault and could have won the competition. It is her fault for giving up if you claim that is what happened when you say she didn't "fight." Khorkina was known for being a grade A betch and for yelling and pushing people around. When things didn't go her way, she let it show and she did that her by missing bars and then refusing a do-over on vault at the end of competition. I pity the situation but in the end, Khorkina buckled under the pressure and as a multiple time world champion, she shouldn't have.

I also don't see how you can say it isn't Khorkina's fault about the vault thing but then not give Shannon some leeway for the whole Gutsu fiasco in 92. The rules did say a substitute could only be made in the case of injury and Galieva has come forward and admitted there was NO injury. It sounds like Shannon got cheated, too? So it really evens out.

bek
04-24-2010, 03:29 AM
Bek, who said that what happened with the vault wasn't wrong? No one thinks that! I was simply saying that Khorkina was one of the best competitors out there and she missed on an event that was not set up wrong. She should have been able to compose herself and hit. If she had done that, she would have had a redo on vault and could have won the competition. It is her fault for giving up if you claim that is what happened when you say she didn't "fight." Khorkina was known for being a grade A betch and for yelling and pushing people around. When things didn't go her way, she let it show and she did that her by missing bars and then refusing a do-over on vault at the end of competition. I pity the situation but in the end, Khorkina buckled under the pressure and as a multiple time world champion, she shouldn't have.

I also don't see how you can say it isn't Khorkina's fault about the vault thing but then not give Shannon some leeway for the whole Gutsu fiasco in 92. The rules did say a substitute could only be made in the case of injury and Galieva has come forward and admitted there was NO injury. It sounds like Shannon got cheated, too? So it really evens out.

Oh please. The rule was ridiculously unfair to begin with. Its not like Shannon and Tatiana competed on an even playing field when it comes to qualifications. Shannon knew she could afford a major error, and still qualify. Kim qualified with a lower total score than Tatiana. Athletes were replaced with other athletes all the time it was a common practice and it seems the only ones who competed were at times the athletes who were taken out, and the United States.

Tatiana was doing the hardest gymanstics in the event, and knew she could afford no major error. The rule was ridiculous unfair to nations who had a very deep team, because it meant a good chance their best gymnasts couldn't compete in the All Around if they made one mistake. How unfair that Kim would be able to get away with fall in prelims, but Tatiana couldn't?Whose to say Shannon wouldn't have made an error in prelims, if she was competiting with the same kind of pressure.[ She didn't have go 8/8 to make it to the All Around. I refuse to feel sorry for Shannon in this situation, the playing field was not even to begin with.
And second, who knows how well Rosa would have done. She actually had strong optional routines. And her scores in qualification were hampered by the fact that she went early in the lineup. The Unified coaches actaully considered letting Rosa compete, because her routines were more medal worthy than Boginskaya but they felt that would lead to a scandal due to Boginskaya's fame.

There's also even a rumor although from a gossipy source that says that another reason for Unified coaches decision was that Rosa actually wasn't age eligible, and they feared if she competed in the All Around and did well that this would get scrutinized. Don't know if its true, but if it is than I think we can leave out the whole Tatiana didn't deserve to make the All Around.

In the end the only person who was screwed in this deal was whatever Unified athlete wasn't going to get to compete. Because all four absolutely deserved to. The idea that Shannon deserved to benefit from the Soviet Union's "depth" is ridiculously unfair to begin with. No reason why the coaches shouldn't have been allowed to replace an athlete to begin with, if they thought another athlete would do better, as long as the athlete's scores were high enough to qualify overall-which Gutsu's were. Its not like we are talking about an even playing field when it comes to age rules, that apply to every federation. The "fair rules" your espousing say that Tatiana has to go 8/8 to make the All Around but Shannon and Kim don't because Tatiana comes from the stronger team.
In the end, all Shannon had to do was be better than Gutsu that night. And she wasn't clearly better. And Judy the unwritten rule was that they were easier on the harder routines execution wise that hurt Boginskaya whose routines were a lot easier.

As for Khorkina, The issue with the vault is this wasn't a case of a normal mistake and move on. The problem was that the mistake rattled a lot of the gymnasts, because they "couldn't understand why". The best way I can explain it is Elise Ray said afterward that she didn't understand her falls on vault at the time, because everything about the vaults felt technically correct. So Elise was really rattled going into beam, because she felt like she didn't know what was up and what was down. She felt something was wrong with her/her nerves and so she didn't even think she could trust her own judgement.

So not only where Khorkina and Elise probably devestated going into their third events, but they also were very confused and probably questining their own judgment. They couldn't even trust what felt correct. So your Khorkina, and your going into your next event, getting ready to do a move you were struggling with in practice. Your also devestated because you just blew the All Around, but confused because the vault felt right. So your starting to wonder about your nerves/judgment.

Is it really ridiculous going into their next events that both Elise and Khorkina messed up? Because not only were they upset about what happened, but they were also more than likely questioning their judgement and their training. The whole point is that this shouldn't have happened. That the mindset was due to other people's issues.

judgejudy27
04-24-2010, 12:10 PM
Yeah if Galieva had been in the 92 Olympic AA she might have ended up being the Davydova of 1980. Maybe it doesnt seem likely but it wasnt impossible. Davydova won the AA almost the same away, considered only the 5th best Soviet going in (Bogi, Gutsu, Lysenko, and even Tschuosovitina were considered better AAers before the Games), hitting everything in the team compulsories and optionals but being conservatively marked due to going up early, but getting higher scores in optionals as the underdog gymnasts began to get noticed more. Unexpectedly qualifying out of the Soviet team into the AA in the first place, then going into the AA finals and taking advantage of mistakes, small or large, from a number of the favorites, and sticking everything to come from behind and win.

I always thought the 3 per country rule was silly. If not let everyone qualify atleast raise it to 4 per country or have some other consideration given. To have 3 Australians and 3 Koreans do the AA that year and only 3 Unifed Athletes is a joke.

bek
04-24-2010, 02:54 PM
Yeah if Galieva had been in the 92 Olympic AA she might have ended up being the Davydova of 1980. Maybe it doesnt seem likely but it wasnt impossible. Davydova won the AA almost the same away, considered only the 5th best Soviet going in (Bogi, Gutsu, Lysenko, and even Tschuosovitina were considered better AAers before the Games), hitting everything in the team compulsories and optionals but being conservatively marked due to going up early, but getting higher scores in optionals as the underdog gymnasts began to get noticed more. Unexpectedly qualifying out of the Soviet team into the AA in the first place, then going into the AA finals and taking advantage of mistakes, small or large, from a number of the favorites, and sticking everything to come from behind and win.


Davydova didn't really come that much out of nowhere. Karoyli in an interview before the event said he thought Davydova would be Nadia's biggest threat. In podium training, everyone was talking about Davydova's optional routines. Its not like Davydova won with safe routines. The girl introduced difficult moves on every apparatu, and she's highly respected in the gymnastics community for being an innovative gymnast and one of the few gymnasts to introduce new moves on every event. It was quite sad that no moves were named after Davydova.

Its not like the innovative move was the same as Yurchenko's vault. Natalia was an incredible gymnast but the vault/vault family was really an invention of her coach. (Who was a brilliant vaulting coach) At the same time Natalia was learning that vault the coach was teaching his other gymnasts the vault, and several of the Soviet gymnasts could do it, Natalia just got lucky because she was the first one given the opportunity to do so. Davydova really was the only woman who could do some of the stuff she was doing at the time.

For example, in 1980, Davydova was the first gymnast to do a giant, and Tkatchev on uneven bars. And Davydova was handicapped going into the All Around Final, because compulsories still put her behind Nadia for example even with the fall.

judgejudy27
04-24-2010, 03:56 PM
I am sure some knowledgable insiders knew of Davydova's abilities but amongst the Soviet coaching staff and the media predicting the event she clearly was not the leader before the Games. Shaposhnikova and Kim were definitely the 2 leaders of the Soviet team going into the Games, and even Filatova was perhaps seen over her too. In compulsories especialy she was going up middle of the lineup or even early in the lineup on each event. She gained respect as the event went along. Even after her AA gold and scoring a 10 on floor optionals in team finals wasnt she pulled from floor finals for Neli Kim who had qualified lower?

bek
04-24-2010, 04:09 PM
I am sure some knowledgable insiders knew of Davydova's abilities but amongst the Soviet coaching staff and the media predicting the event she clearly was not the leader before the Games. Shaposhnikova and Kim were definitely the 2 leaders of the Soviet team going into the Games, and even Filatova was perhaps seen over her too. In compulsories especialy she was going up middle of the lineup or even early in the lineup on each event. She gained respect as the event went along. Even after her AA gold and scoring a 10 on floor optionals in team finals wasnt she pulled from floor finals for Neli Kim who had qualified lower?

No. Nelly qualified higher than Davydova due to compulsories. And part of it was the coaching staff in the Soviet Union had their favorites etc. The thing about the Soviet/Unified team in general was that they could afford to play politics/play favorites and still win. A big factor in the selection of the 1992 team-the Republic you represented. :lol: In 1976 it was if your coach liked your style of gymnastics. The Women's coach kept people like Davydova off the team in 76 because she wanted to send a message about the direction she felt gymnastics should go.

In 1992, I believe they wanted all of the big gymnastics republics to have representatives. The point No gymnast no matter how good was indispensible and there were incredibly talented gymnasts who never got a shot because of politics etc....We have no idea what amazing gymnast we might have missed out on because Soviet politics. It was ridiculous how good they were. Davydova almost didn't make it in 1980.

judgejudy27
04-24-2010, 11:24 PM
I am kind of surprised Pod. doesnt have more votes. She is the only one of this trio to win a World and Olympic AA both and she faced a much tougher field in 95 and 96 than what Miller had in 93 or 94 (I still feel the 93 field was the worst in history bar none), or Khorkina had in 97, 2001, or 2003. I didnt vote for her but I figured she would be closer in votes to Miller atleast.

Choupette
04-25-2010, 04:45 AM
I think Galieva would have had a much better chance at a medal in the floor exercise final than in the all-around (I don't think she would have medalled in the AA). Since Gutsu kept landing her splitted legs double layout short, it would have been interesting to see what Galieva would have done. Her team optional routine was excellent, with only a little hop after her double twist. That routine was better than Zmeskal's routine in finals, who had two big steps backward and got a 9.9, and superior to what the winners of the bronze medal did. I also think it would have been totally fair to Roza if she had been given a chance on her best apparatus.