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MOIJTO
06-14-2010, 05:28 PM
Bump.

Series Finale is next week.

Question about Mary in the show last night- they portray her growing embittered, frustrated and angry. I wonder if this accurate.

dbell will know! :D

olympic
06-14-2010, 06:04 PM
dbell will know! :D

I know that she retaliated against Protestants during her 5-year reign, but I was just interested in her life [so much is made of her father, his wives, and her half-sister Elizabeth but I've never seen anyone really flush out her character]

Jenny
06-14-2010, 06:22 PM
I know that she retaliated against Protestants during her 5-year reign, but I was just interested in her life [so much is made of her father, his wives, and her half-sister Elizabeth but I've never seen anyone really flush out her character]

Phillipa Gregory's novel The Queen's Fool is not a bad book, and most of it is about Mary. It was her second Tudor book, and I think the last that she really researched and thought about before she got big and started churning out book after book.

olympic
06-14-2010, 06:49 PM
Phillipa Gregory's novel The Queen's Fool is not a bad book, and most of it is about Mary. It was her second Tudor book, and I think the last that she really researched and thought about before she got big and started churning out book after book.

Thanks. I will keep this on my list of things to read :)

nerdycool
06-14-2010, 07:09 PM
Question about Mary in the show last night- they portray her growing embittered, frustrated and angry. I wonder if this accurate.I haven't seen any of this season because I don't have Showtime, so I don't know how they set it up for the viewers. But I have every reason to believe that Mary was very embittered, frustrated and angry. To go from a much-loved heiress to the throne who had parents that loved each other, then to have all that taken away by her father had to be very disorienting. Henry separated her from her mother, disinherited her, neglected her, caused her to confess to her own bastardry, forced her to wait upon Elizabeth, her successor to the claim to the throne, introduced her to new queen after new queen, finally to be put way on the back burner once her brother Edward was born. All of this before Henry died.

After, she had to walk a tight rope of faith while Edward was on the throne, and then there was the whole Lady Jane Grey affair. Add to that, Elizabeth was causing her problems as well. Once she became queen, it all went downhill from there, most notably once she married Prince Philip of Spain (eventually King Philip II of Spain).

I actually pity her. Had she grown up in a stable loving household, she might have been a very good ruler. But during those formative years when the rug was yanked out beneath her, all her promise for the future all but evaporated.

Jenny
06-14-2010, 07:32 PM
I actually pity her. Had she grown up in a stable loving household, she might have been a very good ruler. But during those formative years when the rug was yanked out beneath her, all her promise for the future all but evaporated.

It didn't help that she was not raised to rule - but rather led a sheltered life, mostly away from court, in remote places with only a handful of caretakers.

One reason I think Elizabeth was able to rise above a similar situation is that she surrounded herself with trusted advisers and confidantes from the start.

Bev Johnston
06-14-2010, 08:32 PM
I actually pity her. Had she grown up in a stable loving household, she might have been a very good ruler. But during those formative years when the rug was yanked out beneath her, all her promise for the future all but evaporated.

Not to mention that she would've been matched very well, married younger, and mabye would've had better luck with having children.

When I was growing up, all I ever heard about was "Bloody Mary" and thought that she must be just horrible. But after learning a little more about her, I feel really sorry for Mary. If The Queen's Fool is correct, Elizabeth was quite a handful and her husband made a complete fool of her.

Jenny
06-14-2010, 08:46 PM
But after learning a little more about her, I feel really sorry for Mary. If The Queen's Fool is correct, Elizabeth was quite a handful and her husband made a complete fool of her.

I know I just recommended that book, but just a caution that it appears that Gregory is not a big fan of Elizabeth. Readers have commented as such, particularly based on The Virgin Queen. I also question her authority on Spanish culture etc of the period, based on The Constant Princess. I'm no expert myself, but there were enough points in the book that made me question how deep her research and understanding were.

But The Queen's Fool still a good book that I think gets to the heart of Mary's issues as a woman, if not a ruler. I also really enjoyed the added texture of the fool's life and John Dee's role in the period.

On a broader note, I remember reading an article where she said that in preparing for a book, she mapped out the characters' real lives and cross referenced them with events of the day, even weather. I thought that The Other Boleyn Girl and The Queen's Fool really benefited from that level of effort in their detail and the way that she was able to surmise her characters' motivations and emotions in context. After that, I feel that she stopped putting in the time so that she could churn out more books on publishers' deadlines and fulfill her increasingly busy calendar. I haven't read the new one set during the War of the Roses, so am not sure if she's started again with her research or is still riding on her popularity to sell books.

attyfan
06-14-2010, 09:24 PM
It didn't help that she was not raised to rule - but rather led a sheltered life, mostly away from court, in remote places with only a handful of caretakers.

One reason I think Elizabeth was able to rise above a similar situation is that she surrounded herself with trusted advisers and confidantes from the start.

Women, in those days, were not raised to rule at all, but to marry and have children -- whether they were sheltered away from court or not. When applied to a ruling queen, however, there would inevitably be problems. Mary Tudor, for example, came to the throne in a wave of popularity ... but her marriage killed it. Mary Stuart also lost her throne over her marriages. Elizabeth was the only one who recognized that she could not do both ... if she married, she would effectively turn her power over her husband, or she could remain single her entire life, thereby forcing her subjects to turn to her as the ruler.

smurfy
06-14-2010, 09:52 PM
I read the Queen's Fool also, very enjoyable.
In all the things I have read, I always felt Mary Tudor was in a strange predicament. Raised to be in a beneficial marriage to England, but at many times probably was not seen as beneficial to potential suitor, with her being not being in the line to the throne part of the time. Just such an odd situation.

Yehudi
06-15-2010, 02:28 PM
Bump.

Series Finale is next week.

Question about Mary in the show last night- they portray her growing embittered, frustrated and angry. I wonder if this accurate.

I was always under the impression she got on well with Catherine Parr, despite their religious differences. They became estranged after Catherine hastily married Thomas Seymour, but eventually reconciled before Catherine died (One source I read states Catherine named her daughter after Mary).

But I think the last few episodes are showing how Mary went from being a kindhearted, doting sister to burning Protestants. Interestingly enough, that Reginald Pole whom Francis Bryan and Thomas Seymour were trying to kill last season became an influential adviser to Mary and shared responsibility in the persecution of Protestants.

Bev Johnston
06-15-2010, 06:55 PM
I know I just recommended that book, but just a caution that it appears that Gregory is not a big fan of Elizabeth. Readers have commented as such, particularly based on The Virgin Queen. I also question her authority on Spanish culture etc of the period, based on The Constant Princess. I'm no expert myself, but there were enough points in the book that made me question how deep her research and understanding were.


Have you read The Other Queen? Her non-fandom of Elizabeth continues in that one, as well.


I I haven't read the new one set during the War of the Roses, so am not sure if she's started again with her research or is still riding on her popularity to sell books.

I am reading it now and enjoying it. However, I know zero about that time in history, except that no one really knows what happened to the Princes in the Tower, so I can't tell you if the subject was resesarched thoroughly.

Jenny
06-15-2010, 08:26 PM
Yes, The Other Queen is another. I found that book particularly repetitive and the three main characters to be one-dimensional. After that I read a very good biography of Bess of Hardwick (by Mary Lovell), and there's SOOO much material there, it's a shame the book didn't have more depth.

For the Princes in the Tower, I don't mind if Gregory has an opinion and goes with it, because after all it is fiction and at this point, no one knows the truth. In The Other Boleyn Girl, she says that she made certain decisions, including birth order of the Boleyn siblings, and her relationship with her brother. I'm cool with that if it's based on research, she's formed and opinion and goes with it for a fictional story. What I don't like is just plain sloppy research that accepts someone else's theory without question.

Twilight1
06-16-2010, 01:01 AM
Bess of Hardwick was a far more interesting character than Gregory wrote her as and I was really disappointed in that book.

I found I did enjoy The White Queen though, I don`t know much about that particular time in history as I was more into the earlier Plantagenet`s.

I do want to read a couple more of Gregory`s books though... The Queen`s Fool being one and The Virgin Queen

Lanie
06-16-2010, 01:09 AM
The Virgin Queen was awful. I was really struck by her hatred of Elizabeth.

I didn't like The White Queen either. It seemed like she just churned it out in a few hours.

I got bored and started a Tudor-era novel. No one will ever read it, but it's fun to write! :D