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kappa_1
05-07-2011, 03:05 AM
^^ Yeah I would agree with that. Although I would consider Legends of the Fall to be Gusmeroli's to own and consider any other LotF program to be inferior, I could see it highlighting some of Rachael's strengths


Oh, believe me, many, many--TOO MANY--lower-level skaters have. Wicked is all over the ice in the USA. Just not at the elite level, apparently. If I had a dime for every time I'd seen a "Popular" program. . .

:rofl: This made me chuckle.

MacMadame
05-07-2011, 03:22 AM
As a musician and a lover of music who is always excited to find a "skating piece" and imagine where the choreography could go, I have to wonder why everyone picks the same music over and over again. It's because a) most of the skaters really don't know beyond what they've heard other skaters do and b) the choreographers don't know enough about music to say, "if you liked hearing [piece one], perhaps you should skate to [piece two]."
But the music that keep getting used is safe. Competitive skating isn't about making an artistic statement. It's about getting the scores to beat the competition. Using a piece of music that is well-known has two advantages. First, the judges aren't distracted by something they've never heard before and, second, the team knows that this piece of music can work for skating so there is less risk.

I'm not saying that everyone should skate to the same old tired pieces but I completely understand how it happens and I can't really blame the skaters for these choices.

victoriaheidi
05-07-2011, 03:31 AM
But the music that keep getting used is safe. Competitive skating isn't about making an artistic statement. It's about getting the scores to beat the competition. Using a piece of music that is well-known has two advantages. First, the judges aren't distracted by something they've never heard before and, second, the team knows that this piece of music can work for skating so there is less risk.

I'm not saying that everyone should skate to the same old tired pieces but I completely understand how it happens and I can't really blame the skaters for these choices.

I just have to wonder if there's famous music people aren't thinking of.

Also, if every skater always adhered to what was "safe" in the judges' eyes, we wouldn't have quads, most of the jumps we have or most of the other elements. People need to start pushing the envelope more, because some of what I saw at times during Worlds was a massive snoozefest.

MacMadame
05-07-2011, 04:01 AM
Also, if every skater always adhered to what was "safe" in the judges' eyes, we wouldn't have quads, most of the jumps we have or most of the other elements. People need to start pushing the envelope more, because some of what I saw at times during Worlds was a massive snoozefest.

I believe you are missing my point (vs. just disagreeing). Because your example is irrelevant to what we are discussing. Of course people push the technical element. If you land a jump others don't that is harder, you get more points. There is a benefit that counteracts the risk of doing something hard. Plus it's a sport and you know going into it how many points you'll get if you land that quad. It's not the same with music choices at all.

For one thing, you don't get extra points for using interesting music no one has ever heard of. There is no "victoriaheidi doesn't think it's a snoozefest" mark in the table of technical elements or in the PCS descriptions.

If a skater can get the PCS they need using tried and true music (and they can), then there is no benefit to being the one to use some random piece of music that no one has ever used before that counteracts the risk of the music turning out not to be as suitable for skating as they originally thought or that the judges hating it (and having that seep into the marks).

The people who experiment with music do so because it's important to them; they understand the risks and are willing to take them. But not everyone is willing and I don't blame them because it's a sport and the point is to do as well as you can, not to be a great artiste.

gkelly
05-07-2011, 04:41 AM
On average, the majority of skaters who get to the elite levels are jocks at heart more than they are artists.

Those of us who like artistic performances as much as or more than purely technical ones are lucky when the rare skater is able to deliver both.

Sasha'sSpins
05-07-2011, 04:42 AM
:rolleyes: Her skating isn't anymore mediocre then theirs -- face it we don't have any interesting lady skaters right now!!

That's your opinion, and I completely disagree. Mirai is VERY interesting. Downright entertaining imo. Sorry, but without the jumps Rachael's skating IS far more mediocre than Mirai's, and most of the top skaters out there. That was painfully obvious each time Flatt's jumps abandoned her.

Sasha'sSpins
05-07-2011, 04:56 AM
Mirai with a Wicked LP would be the coolest thing ever.

ITA. My mom recently asked if there was any money in advising skaters on music choices. I had to tell her that, sadly, no, there isn't. But I seriously hope to at least try choreography someday, and no one I choreograph will skate to the same old routine!

I have LOVED "Wicked" ever since my baby sister introduced me to it-by lending me her CD! I think this music would be PERFECT for Mirai!

It might work for Rachael-again with the right choreographer for her, and I don't think that's Lori (nor for Mirai for that matter).

reese
05-07-2011, 04:59 AM
How 'bout some classical music for Mirai or Rachael? I've heard good things about it!

Marco
05-07-2011, 06:06 AM
Glad she finally left him. Unfortunately I believe it's too late to fix her basics and her body is too limited to vastly improve in the areas she is lacking in even with the greatest coach. And she will have to focus on college.

She should be proud of herself for being a US Champion and Junior World Champion.

Triple Butz
05-07-2011, 10:15 AM
For one thing, you don't get extra points for using interesting music no one has ever heard of. There is no "victoriaheidi doesn't think it's a snoozefest" mark in the table of technical elements or in the PCS descriptions.

If a skater can get the PCS they need using tried and true music (and they can), then there is no benefit to being the one to use some random piece of music that no one has ever used before that counteracts the risk of the music turning out not to be as suitable for skating as they originally thought or that the judges hating it (and having that seep into the marks).


I think it can definitely work to a skater's advantage. Look at Jeff Buttle in 2008. One of the reasons he was able to beat more technically difficult LPs was because his program was so exotic and original.

I know it was a different system, but I also think back to Michelle Kwan's career in the 90's. She was able to separate herself from the pack and turn into an artist overnight, due in part to her music choices which were totally original.

Of course you take a risk in alienating a judge with a new piece of music, but then again your programs usually get plenty of mileage throughout the GP series which gives judges and fans time to catch up.

Jaana
05-07-2011, 10:17 AM
There are various areas where itīs possible for Flatt to make improvements (basic skating and speed among them), but unfortunately she canīt change her bodytype (the way her person looks on the ice)...

Triple Butz
05-07-2011, 10:49 AM
There are various areas where itīs possible for Flatt to make improvements (basic skating and speed among them), but unfortunately she canīt change her bodytype (the way her person looks on the ice)...

I've heard this over and over, but I don't buy it. Her 'body type' is fine. It's the way she hunches her shoulders and drops her back in addition to the way she positions her arms. Dorothy Hamill had a similar body type and she had the best posture in the business. She looked ten times taller and longer than she was because of the poise and extension she exuded. Roz Sumners is another example.

I've also heard a lot of comments about her "looks" which is totally baffling to me; she's cute as can be!

Jaana
05-07-2011, 11:07 AM
I've heard this over and over, but I don't buy it. Her 'body type' is fine. It's the way she hunches her shoulders and drops her back in addition to the way she positions her arms. Dorothy Hamill had a similar body type and she had the best posture in the business. She looked ten times taller and longer than she was because of the poise and extension she exuded. Roz Sumners is another example.

I've also heard a lot of comments about her "looks" which is totally baffling to me; she's cute as can be!

Dorothy Hamill had a totally different look on the ice, she had a slimmer body type and she definetely had a neck. I agree though that Flatt has a cute looking face.

Triple Butz
05-07-2011, 11:25 AM
Dorothy Hamill had a totally different look on the ice, she had a slimmer body type and she definetely had a neck. I agree though that Flatt has a cute looking face.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge19yqKO5M0&feature=related

I still think their body types are quite similar. It just doesn't seem like it because of the way Dorothy carries herself: Head up, shoulders back, arrns extended fully and naturally. If Rachael did this, she would appear slimmer, too. And for the record, she HAS a neck :) If she would hold her head up high and project outwardly instead of hunching, it would be more obvious.

ETA: Comparison http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD8xLQxytkA (Even in the opening pose, you can clearly see her shoulders collapse inwardly and her head caves into her neck.)

Ziggy
05-07-2011, 02:15 PM
In my opinion, Flatt's current problem began when someone -- and it was probably Tara Modlin -- told her she should be perky. Earlier in her career, she demonstrated great understanding of fairly complex classical music. Her programs were understated, but quietly impactful.

While her movements are not always pretty (a ballet teacher would help a lot with stretch, line, and posture), she definitely knows how to move to the music. I think "East of Eden" is a good reminder of this.

Where her skating needs more "oomph" is in spins (crisper positions, more difficult positions, faster rotation), the amplitude of her elements, and overall skating speed. No amount of Betty Boop faces are going to fool the judges into thinking she has the above.

Her programs used to be extremely bland and had absolutely no character.

Her movements in East of Eden had pretty much no connection to the music, the straight line steps being just :rolleyes:.

I'll take attempts at perk any time over blandness.

When skated well, Slaughter on the Tenth Avenue looked fantastic. It had a little perk, a lot of drama, nice highlight movements, It worked.