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barbk
05-06-2011, 10:17 PM
I actually think EOE was one of the best programs she's ever had. I really enjoyed it, especially at US Nationals. To me, the FS was just a mess. It looked like a lot of fake movements that she wasn't even comfortable doing.

Whatever she paid for choreography for that FS was wasted money, imo. Just not good, unless perhaps you're back in the 80's, when that style of choreography was (unfortunately) more common.

reese
05-06-2011, 10:34 PM
Sigh, she really could have won a lot more and 4CC in 2006 for sure. The short program was fantastic. One triple loop away from gold if I remember correctly. Honestly, Bebe may not have go to worlds as many times or the Olympics but when she lands the jumps she probably would have been marked higher than Rachael internationally. :slinkaway

I think Bebe always got a lot of fan love because she had a really interesting style and attack. She never had the cleanest or most elegant lines, but she always chose music and choreography that played to her style and that was really nice to see. I always loved watching her even though the jumps were always a question mark. I think Sarah Kawahara did most (all?) of her competitive programs and I love the way Sarah really understood and played to Bebe's strengths. I would like to think that if Bebe could have gotten some consistent jumps she could have had much more international success. Her programs had impact.

Rachael on the other hand (and I blame Tom and Lori for this mostly) has never developed a style. I love her early programs, namely her 2007 SP, but somehow, after puberty, Team Flatt decided to pursue a cutsie, Betty Boop kind of thing on Rachael, and it just never really worked. Her Slaughter on Tenth Avenue LP is the culmination of this disastrous line of programs. I hope a new coach and hopefully a new choreographer can move her in a different direction. I think she's actually, deep down, a very musical skater with a good sense of rhythm.

A little OT, but I've never been a huge fan of Slaughter for skating programs. (I read somewhere that this music is cursed in skating? In that no one ever wins using that music?) Anyway, the only Slaughter skating program I've ever liked was Torvill and Dean.

Torvill and Dean Worlds 1979 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rqmp276DENg)

And very fun: Vera-Ellen and Gene Kelly performing Slaughter on Tenth Avenue in 1948 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaAiKkmjp3c)

victoriaheidi
05-06-2011, 11:31 PM
Whatever she paid for choreography for that FS was wasted money, imo. Just not good, unless perhaps you're back in the 80's, when that style of choreography was (unfortunately) more common.

As soon as I heard "Slaughter," I wanted Rachael to :scream: far, FAR away from Tom and Lori.

I have come to a simple conclusion: very few people in the skating world know music. Sure, some do, and others know particularly famous works, but skaters don't have "music people" on their teams as they do choreographers, jump technicians and physical therapists.

I have said this many times and I'll say it again now: Lori Nichol choreographs for way too many people. She's not that great a choreographer: imo, she's better for expressive and artistic types, not technical types like Rachael.

As a musician and a lover of music who is always excited to find a "skating piece" and imagine where the choreography could go, I have to wonder why everyone picks the same music over and over again. It's because a) most of the skaters really don't know beyond what they've heard other skaters do and b) the choreographers don't know enough about music to say, "if you liked hearing [piece one], perhaps you should skate to [piece two]."

Personally, I wish Rachael would find another choreographer who could help her produce a program she actually wanted to skate to-part of the reason I think Harry Potter would be amazing for her is because we know she loves Harry Potter! At the same time, I hope she'll consider taking more BALLET classes-not jazz and learn how to express her emotions through her actions. THAT'S why I want to see her jump into acting class: I think that, if she understood her "character's" motives a bit more, she'd have an easier time expressing herself on ice (beyond the facial expressions and cutesy gestures).

At the same time, I am going through college orientation and registration at another college. I have already planned to discuss my outside commitments with my advisor and devise a four-year plan (or maybe even a five-year plan, who knows!) which allows me to complete all of my requirements-in and out of school-without going insane. Rachael has a calendar-she should sit down with her advisor during orientation and plot out GP dates, nationals, 4CCs and Worlds (face it, she should OVERPREPARE, regardless of how far she actually makes it), with their respective training hours, and which classes she is required to take each quarter. She's an elite athlete and an Olympian; I hope she doesn't try to overextend herself to avoid any "special favors."

I KNOW she took APs, but I hope she realizes what my AP Lit class taught me this year: college is a whole new ball of wax.

Have I written enough? Boy, I wish I could convey all of this to Team Flatt.

Louis
05-07-2011, 12:07 AM
If Rachael gets a new coach, I'd be interested to see if that makes a difference in her artistry. She might have an Angela Nikodinov-style transformation with the right guidance.

In my opinion, Flatt's current problem began when someone -- and it was probably Tara Modlin -- told her she should be perky. Earlier in her career, she demonstrated great understanding of fairly complex classical music. Her programs were understated, but quietly impactful.

While her movements are not always pretty (a ballet teacher would help a lot with stretch, line, and posture), she definitely knows how to move to the music. I think "East of Eden" is a good reminder of this.

Where her skating needs more "oomph" is in spins (crisper positions, more difficult positions, faster rotation), the amplitude of her elements, and overall skating speed. No amount of Betty Boop faces are going to fool the judges into thinking she has the above.

mgobluegirl
05-07-2011, 12:37 AM
In my opinion, Flatt's current problem began when someone -- and it was probably Tara Modlin -- told her she should be perky. Earlier in her career, she demonstrated great understanding of fairly complex classical music. Her programs were understated, but quietly impactful.

ITA. I really did like her "Romantic Rhapsody" FS that she won Junior Worlds with in 2008 and went back to for 2009 Worlds, where she placed 5th.

Triple Butz
05-07-2011, 01:12 AM
As soon as I heard "Slaughter," I wanted Rachael to :scream: far, FAR away from Tom and Lori.

I have come to a simple conclusion: very few people in the skating world know music. Sure, some do, and others know particularly famous works, but skaters don't have "music people" on their teams as they do choreographers, jump technicians and physical therapists.

I have said this many times and I'll say it again now: Lori Nichol choreographs for way too many people. She's not that great a choreographer: imo, she's better for expressive and artistic types, not technical types like Rachael.

As a musician and a lover of music who is always excited to find a "skating piece" and imagine where the choreography could go, I have to wonder why everyone picks the same music over and over again. It's because a) most of the skaters really don't know beyond what they've heard other skaters do and b) the choreographers don't know enough about music to say, "if you liked hearing [piece one], perhaps you should skate to [piece two]."


This is one of the biggest problems I have with choreographers today. Where does the inspiration for new programs come from? OLD skating programs. There are literally BILLIONS of wonderful pieces of music that would be wonderful for skating, bring something new to the table, and give fans something new to listen to. Instead of going out into the world and experiencing art and culture for themselves, skaters and choreographers rely on a very small list of works that have been done to death in skating. Take "Slaughter" for example. A somewhat famous work, but it doesn't get performed all that much these days...Why not "Wicked" or "South Pacific" or something that hasn't been brought to the ice time and time again? If you like Rachmaninov, why not buy some CDs and listen to some of the other masterworks he wrote besides the 2nd and 3rd piano concerti?? Vivaldi wrote a helluva a lot more than just the "Four Seasons" and the same goes for Bach and the famous "Air (on the G-string)" or "Toccata and Fugue (Dm)."

It seems when skaters try to be modern, instead of choosing truly contemporary works, they opt for a "modernized version" of the same old same old like hip -hop "Swan Lake" or techno "Carmen."

Sorry, but it all makes me :wall: x1000

snoopysnake
05-07-2011, 01:24 AM
Maybe Rudy Galindo could coach Rachel? If I recall correctly, he moved from Nevada back home to San Jose and was/is coaching.

kappa_1
05-07-2011, 01:31 AM
Hmm, Angela always had the goods. She did go out and ho-hum it, but you knew she was capable of greatness. It was clear Angela had "It". I was a closet Angela fan but she bummed it so many times I lost hope. I do not see the greatness that Angela could command in Rachael, unfortunately. I'm trying to think what route Rachael could follow. Beatrisa Liang was never pretty princess but had incredible programs. I don't think Rachael could even do a Beatrisa program.
I hope Rachael just retires, has a successful career at Stanford, and succeeds in her next path. Skating is not her thing, if she wants world recognition. (Not saying being 12th in the World is anything to sniff at, it's also an accomplishment).

Yep, skating isn't Rachael's thing at all. Not by a long shot. She can just leave it off her CV because no one would recognize her as a talented figure skater.

It's funny that Debi Thomas is her mentor because she skates about as well as Debi's Wanda Beazel character :rolleyes:

I'm so glad I don't have to rely on some of you for life advice:)

victoriaheidi
05-07-2011, 01:33 AM
This is one of the biggest problems I have with choreographers today. Where does the inspiration for new programs come from? OLD skating programs. There are literally BILLIONS of wonderful pieces of music that would be wonderful for skating, bring something new to the table, and give fans something new to listen to. Instead of going out into the world and experiencing art and culture for themselves, skaters and choreographers rely on a very small list of works that have been done to death in skating. Take "Slaughter" for example. A somewhat famous work, but it doesn't get performed all that much these days...Why not "Wicked" or "South Pacific" or something that hasn't been brought to the ice time and time again? If you like Rachmaninov, why not buy some CDs and listen to some of the other masterworks he wrote besides the 2nd and 3rd piano concerti?? Vivaldi wrote a helluva a lot more than just the "Four Seasons" and the same goes for Bach and the famous "Air (on the G-string)" or "Toccata and Fugue (Dm)."

Mirai with a Wicked LP would be the coolest thing ever.


Sorry, but it all makes me :wall: x1000

ITA. My mom recently asked if there was any money in advising skaters on music choices. I had to tell her that, sadly, no, there isn't. But I seriously hope to at least try choreography someday, and no one I choreograph will skate to the same old routine!

kappa_1
05-07-2011, 01:51 AM
Mirai with a Wicked LP would be the coolest thing ever.


I agree! I'm surprised skaters haven't really picked up on Wicked. I think "The Wizard and I," "As Long as You're Mine" and of course "Defying Gravity" would make for some good LP or SP music.

victoriaheidi
05-07-2011, 01:53 AM
I agree! I'm surprised skaters haven't really picked up on Wicked. I think "The Wizard and I," "As Long as You're Mine" and of course "Defying Gravity" would make for some good LP or SP music.

It would all be great. I can also see "Dancing Through Life" as something.

I think the reason it hasn't really gotten skating attention is because I don't believe much of it is currently available as a "symphonic" recording, save the few musical interludes on the OBCR, and I don't think the interested parties have the means to hire orchestras to help them out. Could be wrong, jmo, but I think that adds to it.

manleywoman
05-07-2011, 01:57 AM
Personally, I thought Rachael's latest programs by Lori were some of the best work Lori's done in a looooong time. But I guess I'm in the minority.

kappa_1
05-07-2011, 02:21 AM
Personally, I thought Rachael's latest programs by Lori were some of the best work Lori's done in a looooong time. But I guess I'm in the minority.

I'm one of the few who actually liked the Slaughter LP, but then again I also loooved the guitar concerto LP that Miki ended up ditching back in 04/05 so it seems like I have a thing for programs from technical skaters that people hate.

LilJen
05-07-2011, 02:24 AM
I agree! I'm surprised skaters haven't really picked up on Wicked. I think "The Wizard and I," "As Long as You're Mine" and of course "Defying Gravity" would make for some good LP or SP music.

Oh, believe me, many, many--TOO MANY--lower-level skaters have. Wicked is all over the ice in the USA. Just not at the elite level, apparently. If I had a dime for every time I'd seen a "Popular" program. . .

victoriaheidi
05-07-2011, 02:28 AM
I'm one of the few who actually liked the Slaughter LP, but then again I also loooved the guitar concerto LP that Miki ended up ditching back in 04/05 so it seems like I have a thing for programs from technical skaters that people hate.

The reason I detest it is because it really doesn't show Rachael in her best light.