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Rafter
03-31-2010, 03:09 PM
Canada just seems to be behind the ball, technically. I mean, inconsistent jumps is one thing--hello, Canadian ladies! But why is the triple twist such a rare move amongst the current Canadian pairs?

To me it seems that there is a lack of strong female pair skaters in Canada. They either can't do the SBS jumps and/or throws, or else they are so unpolished/unrefined/unsophisticated that you just know they are never going to do anything at the senior international level with respect to PCS marks.

I think there's a big problem in Canada in that many of our female skaters (ice dancers excluded) are not encouraged to take ballet. As a result, they look like truck drivers out there. I thought Skate Canada was supposed to be encouraging ballet 10 years ago with the coaches, but I'm not seeing that that is happening. Either the parents don't buy it, or the coaches don't think it's important.

Rafter
03-31-2010, 03:21 PM
They skated together for less than a year and did pretty awesome at Skate Canada and their team mates just finished as the best Canadian team at Junior Worlds...coaches can't be that bad ;-)
They are both great jumpers and have awesome lifts...there are enough other lovey-dovey-edgy-ballett teams out there. What's so wrong about being an athletic team? Plus the crowd loves them!

So it looks like we have the Kitchener-Waterloo brigade in this thread. :rolleyes:

The problem with MT&M is that they zero finesse, polish, toe point, etc in their skating. There are times where she skates around with arms dropped beside her. Nothing is ever placed. They just bomb around from one element to the next rushing through the music and movements. Hopefully there will be improvements this fall.

As for Jones & Gaskell, I think he has potential, but she needs big time work on posture, edge quality, stroking, toe point, etc. She can't even hit a good position in the BODS. One of the worst I've ever seen.

I blame the coaching situtation. The Wirtzes were never the most polished team out there. Kristy herself was a bit of a truck driver and obviously they (as coaches) have put all the emphasis on the "big tricks" and pretty much nothing else. It's a shame because their teams are athletic.

Shallwedance
03-31-2010, 04:16 PM
Truck driver is a good description- even some of Canada's more refined pairs have that quality.

My all time favorite Canadian pair -Hough & Laudret. They're Canadian (I hope), right? Boy I love watching their old routines on SOI video clips. Toughy(ie?) Hough could dance rock'n'roll on the ice like no other.

Maybe SC needs to start farming out their pairs to some of the non-Canadian coaches around.

The Observer
04-01-2010, 12:28 AM
To me it seems that there is a lack of strong female pair skaters in Canada. They either can't do the SBS jumps and/or throws, or else they are so unpolished/unrefined/unsophisticated that you just know they are never going to do anything at the senior international level with respect to PCS marks.


I agree. This to me is the biggest problem.

What I would like to know is, why is it usually the girls who seem to have so much more trouble with the SBS jumps than the guys? It was a big problem for Jamie Sale for many years, and now it continues to be a big problem for Annabelle Langlois and Jessica Dube. I have rarely seen these ladies get through a long program without a problem on the SBS jumps.

Despite the fact that Cody Hay has less experience than Langlois, he is already more consistent on his SBS jumps than she is. Why are the guys more consistent?

cmdiva
04-01-2010, 01:23 AM
IMO if Dube/Davison want to compete next season and are serious about their goals they need another coach. Aren't they the highest ranked skaters' Barabe' has? They're not training with anybody they can role model and learn from, and they're not be trained by anybody who has trained a team who routinely lands on the international podium. I'm beginning to believe they succeed despite their coaching. igher

So where should pair teams go to get the coaching that is needed to succeed?

yfbg722
04-01-2010, 04:22 AM
So it looks like we have the Kitchener-Waterloo brigade in this thread. :rolleyes:

The problem with MT&M is that they zero finesse, polish, toe point, etc in their skating. There are times where she skates around with arms dropped beside her. Nothing is ever placed. They just bomb around from one element to the next rushing through the music and movements. Hopefully there will be improvements this fall.

As for Jones & Gaskell, I think he has potential, but she needs big time work on posture, edge quality, stroking, toe point, etc. She can't even hit a good position in the BODS. One of the worst I've ever seen.

I blame the coaching situtation. The Wirtzes were never the most polished team out there. Kristy herself was a bit of a truck driver and obviously they (as coaches) have put all the emphasis on the "big tricks" and pretty much nothing else. It's a shame because their teams are athletic.

I'm curious Rafter. Are you a (former) skater, a coach, a judge or just a skating fan? I don't mean to offend by this question, I'm just quite interested in what background you bring to your criticisms. Would you consider sharing teams and/or coaches that you admire and the reasons for that. I don't have a dance or skating background. I'm just a fan but I'm interested in learning more.

Shallwedance
04-01-2010, 01:50 PM
So where should pair teams go to get the coaching that is needed to succeed? No idea but if dance teams can go to non-Canadian coaches, can't a Canadian team go to Muskvina or something?

Just - Barabe is the worst, IMO. These are simply impressions and I'm open to correction, but she seems like she coddles D&D and is more of a peer than a coach. Fine if they're getting results, but they're not. For instance, she let on that D&D were disappointed at first in Vancouver but then realized sixth (seventh?) in the world is amazing. Heeelllloooooo! It's like this team spends way too much time contemplating the universe and their place in it and not enough time getting themselves and their skating in the absolute best condition they can possibly be, raising the bar and trying to push past it. That's how it has to be done.

Have to wonder how William Thompson and Skate Canada looks at their situation right now. He touted the results of all of the skaters but D&D, but what's the answer? Toss em in the trash, pull the plug? A meeting that includes pep talks and goal setting without any change in environment? I mean, ??

screech
04-01-2010, 03:11 PM
I think that more top pairs should go to Lee Barkell. He has Langlois/Hay and for all his singles coaching success (Jeff, Chris Mabee, Nobu, Joey Russell...), pairs is really his specialty, so I'm surprised he doesn't have more top pairs there.

yfbg722
04-02-2010, 01:57 AM
I think that more top pairs should go to Lee Barkell. He has Langlois/Hay and for all his singles coaching success (Jeff, Chris Mabee, Nobu, Joey Russell...), pairs is really his specialty, so I'm surprised he doesn't have more top pairs there.

I don't think there's much left in the way of pairs in Barrie though. It's uncertain if Langlois/Hay are continuing and their other senior team Pisotta/Stewart have split and well as their junior team of Bird/Schultz so it doesn't seem there's much of a pairs environment there any more.

There aren't a lot of pairs training centres in Canada really. There's Kevin Wheeler in Preston, Scott Rachuk in Strathroy, the Wirtzs in Waterloo and then Gauthier and Barabe in Quebec and then I think Lawrence and Sweigers are with Hole in Saskatchewan.

Might be kind of interesting, if one had a lot of time on their hands, to do a medal count for each of them lol!

JillyBean16
04-07-2010, 06:11 PM
If I was a skater I would want to hang up my skates after reading some of these posts.

How can anyone say that a skater who has reached the level that these kids have has 'zero' anything???? As a fan, I sat through Canadians and was so inspired by the depth that there seemed to be, in pairs especially. I can honestly say that I never once thought about a skaters' toe point or whether or not they looked like a truck driver or whether or not they sucked because they lacked consistency. I did however think WOW how awesome are these skaters. How amazing that they have the courage to do what they are doing.

flowerpower
04-07-2010, 06:34 PM
If I was a skater I would want to hang up my skates after reading some of these posts.

How can anyone say that a skater who has reached the level that these kids have has 'zero' anything???? As a fan, I sat through Canadians and was so inspired by the depth that there seemed to be, in pairs especially. I can honestly say that I never once thought about a skaters' toe point or whether or not they looked like a truck driver or whether or not they sucked because they lacked consistency. I did however think WOW how awesome are these skaters. How amazing that they have the courage to do what they are doing.

I was in London, too, and I agree that it was great to see lots of confident senior pairs teams, each with their own style, putting on a great show.

But when teams reach this level, people begin to look at their international potential, and look at what it would take for them to get podium results at senior Grand Prixs. And that's where the comments and criticisms (often constructive, although not always phrased as such) come in.

If teams are happy with success at the National level (and that is a great achievement in itself) then they needn't worry about the comments. If they want international success, there's more work to do.

JillyBean16
04-07-2010, 07:13 PM
I was in London, too, and I agree that it was great to see lots of confident senior pairs teams, each with their own style, putting on a great show.

But when teams reach this level, people begin to look at their international potential, and look at what it would take for them to get podium results at senior Grand Prixs. And that's where the comments and criticisms (often constructive, although not always phrased as such) come in.

If teams are happy with success at the National level (and that is a great achievement in itself) then they needn't worry about the comments. If they want international success, there's more work to do.

Don't you think that the teams know where improvement is needed? I would think that they're working on it. I really hope that they don't read these sites!

maggylyn
04-07-2010, 07:45 PM
Don't you think that the teams know where improvement is needed? I would think that they're working on it. I really hope that they don't read these sites!

These sites aren't for the skaters, they're for the fans. And the fans can talk about all this stuff because this is what is interesting to the Fans.

IMO, if a skater comes in here at all, he/she should know what to expect and not get upset that there's (gasp!) criticism.

Frau Muller
04-07-2010, 08:58 PM
Maybe Fedor Andreev can go back to his old idea of skating pairs? There just may be a spot on an Olympic team for him, after all. By hook or crook!

ice.dance.girl
04-13-2010, 10:49 PM
Jones and Gaskell are training in Barrie with Lee Barkell now.