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RD
03-19-2010, 03:40 AM
Age is only so much- time is on her side, but it's also about when you peak physically. Some peak at 16, 17 but for others it may not be until 22, 23.

It's more about whether she is willing to put in the work necessary to improve...and it may even include an overhaul of her jump technique. The thing that hurts though is that that may not even be enough if enough talent emerges up the chain that she'd be toast even in her prime- so she's got to ask herself how badly she wants it, and whether it's worth a lot of work that may very well not pay off as much as she wants it to.

shady82
03-19-2010, 03:50 AM
I agree, but because her basics are not good. SO, I don't see her doing well a sbs triple jump.
Anyway, she could use her flexibility the way Natalia Mishkutienok did with her strong partner.

I remember Katerina Berankova used her flexibility very well. She always did a gorgeous I-spin while her partner was doing a spreadeagle or other move, maybe Caroline could do her pearl spin. :)

I agree with everyone saying that Caroline's technique needs tremendous repair. I think what she needs to change is overwhelming, so I wouldn't blame her if she continues without changing it, though she will need it to reach the higher ranks.

RumbleFish
03-19-2010, 02:22 PM
How about Rafael Artunian as her coach?
He is a good technical coach isn't he?
Since Caroline Z looks up to MK, it could be pretty cool for her to share same coach with her idol.
MK went to Artunian to beef up her jumps too, right?

orbitz
03-19-2010, 04:58 PM
Since Caroline Z looks up to MK, it could be pretty cool for her to share same coach with her idol.


That would be Frank Caroll ... or Danny Kwan :P.

Everyone gets down on CZ for her mule kick, but has anyone noticed that Flatt also does sort of a mule kick into her 3flip?

IceAlisa
03-19-2010, 05:14 PM
It seems obvious to everyone here what Caroline's problems are but what I'd like to know is, why isn't it obvious to team Caroline? How long can one be in a deep state of denial?

Before this season started, I said it would be great for Caroline to go back to working on her skating from the ground up. Basics, relearning the jumps, the works. People bit my head off, saying that I want Caroline to kill her Oly dream. She is killing her own dream at this point which I find incredibly said given her natural talent and presence on the ice.

agalisgv
03-19-2010, 05:39 PM
It seems obvious to everyone here what Caroline's problems are but what I'd like to know is, why isn't it obvious to team Caroline? How long can one be in a deep state of denial? Don't know if it's true, but a few years ago someone posted who trained at the same rink with her that CZ was notoriously unmotivated when it came to practice. She just killed time on the ice. It was her mother that told her she better start actually skating during practice or else. But CZ was portrayed as someone who tried to get by with the least amount of work possible.

Don't know how true that was back then, or if it is still true today, but that's some background for you.

tarotx
03-19-2010, 05:48 PM
Caroline couldn't really work on technique this season because she switched coaches and did a little damage to her knee and then switched back to her old coach. Plus Olympic year and a 2009 national podium finish. She needs to find a coach who she feels comfortable with and has the know how to handle skaters who have had potential for years and has the mentality of a high elite skater but hasn't really reached that spot yet. It's hard to know what to fix and what to hide. Getting more speed will really help her out. Perhaps she needs to be going the route that Sasha did. Sasha never really fixed her jumps but she did gain speed and improved her skating skills. Though I guess TAT really isn't an option.

chipso1
03-19-2010, 06:05 PM
Everyone gets down on CZ for her mule kick, but has anyone noticed that Flatt also does sort of a mule kick into her 3flip?

Not so much.

http://eric-minnesotaice.blogspot.com/2010/03/caroline-zhangs-conundrum.html

That's a picture I took of Caroline at Nationals right before her triple flip in the short program. I've never seen a skater with worse toe-jump technique. There's no comparison between Zhang's technique and Flatt's technique, IMO.

IceAlisa
03-19-2010, 06:44 PM
http://eric-minnesotaice.blogspot.com/2010/03/caroline-zhangs-conundrum.html

That's a picture I took of Caroline at Nationals right before her triple flip in the short program. I've never seen a skater with worse toe-jump technique.

:yikes: :wall:

briancoogaert
03-19-2010, 07:02 PM
Everyone gets down on CZ for her mule kick, but has anyone noticed that Flatt also does sort of a mule kick into her 3flip?
Yes, but not at the same level, IMO.
In Zhang's technique, everything is bad : mule kick, arms position, speed going into, edge...

skatingfan5
03-19-2010, 07:32 PM
http://eric-minnesotaice.blogspot.com/2010/03/caroline-zhangs-conundrum.html

That's a picture I took of Caroline at Nationals right before her triple flip in the short program. I've never seen a skater with worse toe-jump technique. There's no comparison between Zhang's technique and Flatt's technique, IMO.:eek: That is one of the scariest pre-jump pictures I have ever seen -- the sky-high "mule kick" would be bad enough, but she plants her picking foot so far to the side that her torso is twisted into a corkscrew! :yikes: One has to seriously wonder for the health of her hip and spine.

Polymer Bob
03-19-2010, 08:45 PM
There is a lot of talk of Caroline's mother, but I can't really say too much about that because I have no idea. As to whether Caroline can improve, I would say, most definitely yes.

Why? Go back and read every criticism of Caroline in this thread. Slow speed, mule-kick, poor basics, look at all of them. Which of these criticisms were NOT true last season? She was slow, had a mule-kick, had poor basics. Yet she was bronze at Nationals and top American at 4CC and World Team Trophy. What changed? The fact is, we don’t know what changed. Maybe an injury, maybe something else, we just don’t know.

My belief is that if Caroline can fix this mysterious problem, she can get near the top even with all her problems. Then whatever improvements she makes on top of that will only lift her higher.

Sylvia
03-19-2010, 08:52 PM
IMO, "what changed" from last season to this one is that Zhang hasn't improved as much as her competitors have. Her "mysterious problem" is really not that mysterious and has been addressed here before -- she hasn't been proactive enough to improve the flaws in her skating (saying is not doing).

tarotx
03-19-2010, 08:58 PM
Caroline changed coaches and had a knee injury and then changed back to her old coach. Plus it was an Olympic year. I think those events can be an excuse for a bad year. That's why I want to see important changes in the off season and will judge her more after nationals 2011.

chipso1
03-19-2010, 09:20 PM
:eek: That is one of the scariest pre-jump pictures I have ever seen -- the sky-high "mule kick" would be bad enough, but she plants her picking foot so far to the side that her torso is twisted into a corkscrew! :yikes: One has to seriously wonder for the health of her hip and spine.

ITA. And aside from injury, looking back at that picture makes me wonder how she even manages to get up and rotate that jump most of the time. A skater should draw straight back with the picking-leg/foot for the Lutz and flip. I'm amazed she's not thrown off balance by that sideways leg more often.