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View Full Version : What does Caroline Zhang need to do to work her way back up to the podium?



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Marco
05-12-2010, 09:14 AM
Last year, Caroline was top American lady at Four Continents. Was she skating in the junior segment of the competition? :confused:

Ahead of Dobbs and Gilles. :duh:

And this was the pre-Olympic 4CCs :duh:

Dobbs was a nobody, only landed 3toes, 3sals and 2axels, fell and still equalled Zhang's PCS and was only behind by 2.5 points overall. Dobbs actually beat Zhang in PCS too. Get a clue. :duh:

This refusal to acknowledge her flaws is just :wall:

carrot
05-12-2010, 10:26 AM
Last year, Caroline was top American lady at Four Continents. Was she skating in the junior segment of the competition? :confused:


Ahead of Dobbs and Gilles. :duh:

And this was the pre-Olympic 4CCs :duh:

Dobbs was a nobody, only landed 3toes, 3sals and 2axels, fell and still equalled Zhang's PCS and was only behind by 2.5 points overall. Dobbs actually beat Zhang in PCS too. Get a clue. :duh:

This refusal to acknowledge her flaws is just :wall:

At 4CC 2009, Caroline beat both Alissa and Rachael.

Marco
05-12-2010, 11:00 AM
At 4CC 2009, Caroline beat both Alissa and Rachael.

Oh that 4th place was very respectable and absolutely the best she could have done.

Unfortunately her beating Czisny and Flatt was more of a negative reflection on the latter than it was a positive for the former. :lol:

She got the lowest PCS in the final group and even lost it to Czisny who didn't skate in the final group. So ultimately she didn't medal even though she won TES on the night.

I am not sure if people realised the trend for the judging: her PCS hasn't been improving much in the past years and her ability to rely on TES has reduced. She needs to work on both sides if she wants to become competitive again.

Polymer Bob
05-12-2010, 04:46 PM
With all the talk of PCS, TES, GOE, whatever, .... there is one metric that no ISU rule can distort. That is the standing ovations. Caroline received several in the '08 - '09 season, but none last season. This proves that something was wrong. She did not skate as well last season as she did the season before. I never believed that her lower scores last season were the result of judges making a conscious decision to score her lower.

Unless maybe the audiences all agreed to subdue their applause. :lol:

shine
05-12-2010, 05:11 PM
With all the talk of PCS, TES, GOE, whatever, .... there is one metric that no ISU rule can distort. That is the standing ovations. Caroline received several in the '08 - '09 season, but none last season. This proves that something was wrong. She did not skate as well last season as she did the season before. I never believed that her lower scores last season were the result of judges making a conscious decision to score her lower.

Are you trying to suggest that judges only base their scores on the loudness of applause from the audience? Huh??

In that case maybe the judges are just no longer excited by her flexibility and spins after a couple of years since her debut and are starting to notice her glaring weaknesses just like the rest of the audience. It's not that hard. :lol:

Polymer Bob
05-12-2010, 05:45 PM
Are you trying to suggest that judges only base their scores on the loudness of applause from the audience? Huh??

In that case maybe the judges are just no longer excited by her flexibility and spins after a couple of years since her debut and are starting to notice her glaring weaknesses just like the rest of the audience. It's not that hard. :lol:

I do not accept that audiences have changed the way they applaud. What excited them in the '08-'09 season was the same as what excited them in the '09-'10 season. If audiences responded to Caroline better in the '08-'09 season, it was because she skated better, despite her serious flaws.

pinky166
05-15-2010, 08:27 PM
Ahead of Dobbs and Gilles. :duh:

And this was the pre-Olympic 4CCs :duh:

Dobbs was a nobody, only landed 3toes, 3sals and 2axels, fell and still equalled Zhang's PCS and was only behind by 2.5 points overall. Dobbs actually beat Zhang in PCS too. Get a clue. :duh:

This refusal to acknowledge her flaws is just :wall:

Yeah exactly. Min-Jung Kwak beat Caroline in TES and wasn't far behind in PCS, Caroline's FS score was about 4 points higher than Min-Jung's at 4CC. I think this 4CCs results really shows who she is on par with right now: Dobbs, Imai, Kwak. That is the reality. She's not on par with Flatt or Nagasu or even Czisny and Kim, Asada, Ando, Rochette are head and shoulders ahead of Caroline now, whereas before they weren't. Skaters like Sarah Hecken and Cynthia Phanuef showed at Worlds that if they skate well, they can easily be ahead of Zhang. I mean, Caroline's FS at nationals was not that bad for her and she was still beaten by Czisny, Hughes, Gilles, Liang, Dobbs, and Gao. I think that should be a wakeup call.

Polymer Bob
05-15-2010, 09:08 PM
I think this 4CCs results really shows who she is on par with right now: Dobbs, Imai, Kwak. That is the reality.

Well, there are 2 kinds of "now". There is now "now", and there is 4 months ago "now". If we are talking 4 months ago "now", Caroline was coming off a knee injury that ruined 2 1/2 months of training, then messed up her back to the point where she couldn't even do her pearl spin. Despite all that, Miss Dobbs, Miss Imai and Miss Kwak still couldn't keep Caroline from limping onto the podium.

flyingsit
05-15-2010, 10:37 PM
Well, there are 2 kinds of "now". There is now "now", and there is 4 months ago "now". If we are talking 4 months ago "now", Caroline was coming off a knee injury that ruined 2 1/2 months of training, then messed up her back to the point where she couldn't even do her pearl spin. Despite all that, Miss Dobbs, Miss Imai and Miss Kwak still couldn't keep Caroline from limping onto the podium.

Yes, and Miss Dobbs was competing at the senior level in two events last season, and placed well in both of them. Pretty good for a first-year senior without even attempting a triple loop or triple lutz!

oleada
05-16-2010, 12:40 AM
And it was the first Senior Championship for Imai, Kwak & Dobbs.

smarts1
05-16-2010, 03:06 AM
One thing you have to remember is that Caroline also messed up the triple lutz in the long at 4CC and even more, there isn't much of a point difference between triples such as a sal and a loop (Dobbs does two sals and Caroline does two loops), so the TES isn't must different.

That's one of my complaints about the judging system now. Under the old system, without a lutz and a flip there was NO WAY you could end up on any podium, but now with the new one in place, it's much easier. There needs to be a much bigger difference between a lutz and a toe--two points is simply too small.

pinky166
05-16-2010, 06:22 AM
Well, there are 2 kinds of "now". There is now "now", and there is 4 months ago "now". If we are talking 4 months ago "now", Caroline was coming off a knee injury that ruined 2 1/2 months of training, then messed up her back to the point where she couldn't even do her pearl spin. Despite all that, Miss Dobbs, Miss Imai and Miss Kwak still couldn't keep Caroline from limping onto the podium.

Yeah but Caroline's scores were much closer to those girls than to Akiko's and Mao's. Mirai and Rachael had very disappointing LPs at Worlds and still matched Caroline's 4CC LP score. Also Caroline was 11th at nationals, 11th, meaning even as a USFSA darling, the judges see her skating as inferior to that of Liang, Dobbs and Gao.

Polymer Bob
05-16-2010, 02:36 PM
Also Caroline was 11th at nationals, 11th, meaning even as a USFSA darling, the judges see her skating as inferior to that of Liang, Dobbs and Gao.

Yes, that's true. It also seems the USFSA judges see her skating as inferior to how the ISU judges see it. Then again, she is not a USFSA darling. She never, NEVER, got any favors at a national event.

pinky166
05-16-2010, 02:52 PM
Yes, that's true. It also seems the USFSA judges see her skating as inferior to how the ISU judges see it. Then again, she is not a USFSA darling. She never, NEVER, got any favors at a national event.

You have a point, though until this year it didn't stop her from placing well. And I'm not so sure about your ISU claim, I mean Skate Canada?? That was a nightmare, Caroline got like 40 for her PCS in the LP, and at TEB she didn't get great scores either, and in the 08-09 season she was always grumbling about her scores and didn't break 60 for her SP in the last two seasons. I think some skaters get much higher scores at nationals than internationals (Flatt, Czisney, Wagner) but then a lot just get pretty much the same scores at nationals and internationals (Dobbs, Gao, Nagasu). Caroline would fall into the second category.

hanca
05-16-2010, 03:09 PM
I think some skaters get much higher scores at nationals than internationals (Flatt, Czisney, Wagner) but then a lot just get pretty much the same scores at nationals and internationals (Dobbs, Gao, Nagasu). Caroline would fall into the second category.

No, actually while some skaters get much higher scores at nationals than internationals (Flatt, Czisney, Wagner), and some get pretty much the same scores nationals and internationals (Dobbs, Gao, Nagasu), Caroline got always much lower scores at nationals than at internationals. This last season I believe that she did deserve the low scores, although to be fair she has been injured and had back problems, but in the past I think she was robbed a few times at home competition. Caroline being a USFSA darling? That's a joke? :rofl: