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giselle23
07-14-2010, 07:32 PM
I agree with what Mr. Swift once said about Kwan; she does have a great spiral, but her level of artistry is at best about equal as to that of today's top skaters and she significantly falls behind them technically even if we take 1998 Kwan, technically at her peak, for comparison. She never was a technically proficient skater even in her best years.


I have to disagree with this! Michelle was both technically proficient and a great artist--probably the greatest artistry of all time. As Dick Button said of her exhibition at 1996 Worlds (to EOE), she has great technique and that allows the artistry to come out. Michelle's technique did not diminish appreciably as her career progressed. In some respects it got better--for example, some of her jumps were higher and stronger in 2004 and 2005, at the end of her career. And her artistry continued to improve, too-- her programs in 2003, for example, were packed with even greater passion and command of the ice than we had seen before. I know some people don't get Michelle, but the general consensus is that she had the "it" factor in artistry and was a skater's skater in technique.

CoolGuy
07-14-2010, 07:41 PM
Giving more points to 2000~2003 performances just because they had more triples undermines how difficult the later 2000s programs are compared to the earlier ones due to stiffer technical requirements for all elements. Some of the triples Kwan made back in 2000 or 2002 without a doubt would be subject to harsh DGs if today's tech hawk-eyed specialists overlooked her performances under COP, and she might well have ended up with 4-5 fully credited triples per each performance. While Kwan's performances were fine, if she competed in, say, 2009 with Yuna, Mao, Miki and Joannie, she not only would not have won any medal, but also probably would not have made top 5. I agree with what Mr. Swift once said about Kwan; she does have a great spiral, but her level of artistry is at best about equal as to that of today's top skaters and she significantly falls behind them technically even if we take 1998 Kwan, technically at her peak, for comparison. She never was a technically proficient skater even in her best years.

2000? All of her triples at worlds in 2000 were perfectly executed and fully rotated. Everything in 2003 was also fully rotated. 2001 is the only competition where their might be downgrades, but even then, it appears as if most (if not all) of the questionable triples were 1/4 or less under rotated (putting them in the safe zone).

briancoogaert
07-14-2010, 08:36 PM
The only one who is actually better than Michelle Kwan in almost every aspect is, in my opinion, YuNa Kim. And in the spiral sequence, Michelle is definitely the best ever. ;)

miki88
07-14-2010, 09:29 PM
There may be skaters who have passed Michelle in the technical aspect, but when it comes to artistry, no one has surpassed her. Yuna can be exciting but she doesn't come close to Michelle's soulful performances. Maybe Michelle's idol Janet Lynn is her equal , but unfortunately I haven't been able to watch too many of her performances.

Kwantumleap
07-14-2010, 09:48 PM
I'd rank them:

2000: Michelle Kwan, Red Violin (first two are practically a tie...I always switch between them as favorites)

2001: Michelle Kwan, Song of the Black Swan

2003: Michelle Kwan, Aranjuez

2004: Shizuka Arakawa, Turandot

2008: Mao Asada, Fantasie-Impromptu

2009: Yu-na Kim, Scheherezade

2002: Irina Slutskaya, Carmen

2005: Irina Slutskaya, Queen of Spades

2006: Kimmie Meissner, Queen of Sheba

2007: Miki Ando, Mendelssohn Concerto

I agree with this, except I'd switch Mao and Yu-Na.

Kwantumleap
07-14-2010, 10:01 PM
I dont think Kwan's 2003 Worlds winning LP would have even won the 2000 or 2001 Worlds. With her 2003 Worlds winning LP in 2000 she would have been placed 2nd to Slutskaya in the LP which would have placed her 3rd overall behind Slutskaya and Butyrskaya (the short program winner), whereas in 2001 she would have won the silver behind Slutskaya. Granted I know this isnt just about how they stack up competitively (atleast I dont think it is) but Kwan's 2003 World winning performance wouldnt have even been enough to win in years like 2000 and 2001.
This thread is just about the LPs :)

Fallcolor
07-15-2010, 01:48 AM
And in the spiral sequence, Michelle is definitely the best ever. ;)
eh...What about Nicole Bobek?!

Marco
07-15-2010, 03:49 AM
eh...What about Nicole Bobek?!

Bobek's sequences generally did not have the difficulty one can see in Kwan's. Her individual spirals were absolutely breath-taking though.

I also think Kwan was better at incorporating spirals into choreography than Bobek could.

Coco
07-15-2010, 05:21 AM
Honestly Marco, if you look at the way spiral sequences were being done when Bobek started making the final flight at US Nationals, it's hardly a fair comparison. Bobek revolutionized the element, and I'm quite certain she could have kept pace with Kwan had they come along in the same era. Yes, I know they competed against one another, but I think of Bobek as being part of the "gee, I hope I land 5 triples" era, and never really getting on board the 6 triple minimum train that Lu, Lipinski, Kwan and others picked up from Midori and Kristi.

Kwantumleap
07-15-2010, 05:25 AM
Good point ^, but I think Marco's right about Michelle being more crafty with the spiral. It's really apples to oranges, though, as few of the other skaters could come close to a Kwan or Bobek spiral.

judgejudy27
07-15-2010, 05:28 AM
This thread is just about the LPs :)

I realize that and I dont think Kwan's 2003 Worlds LP would have actually won the LP at either the 2000 or 2001 Worlds, which obviously her 2000 and 2001 World LPs were able to. ;)

UGG
07-15-2010, 06:13 PM
Count me in as another who does not understand why so many believe Kwan's "demise" was the result of COP. She could not even land a triple loop in 2005 which also happened to be 11 years after her Worlds debut. She was more than capeable of getting high scores on footwork and spirals and +GOE on her jumps even being 11 years into her career with a hip injury. I am sure in her prime she would have made an easy adjustment to COP. Jeez if 1998 Olympics was judged under COP, I am pretty sure she would have won easily.

She was just at the end of her carrer physically when COP came around.

judgejudy27
07-16-2010, 01:38 AM
Kwan was clearly past her prime by the time of the 2005 Worlds. To be honest I think her prime was 1996-2001 but she of course is such a great skater she still won many events and medals from 2002-2004 (even U.S Nationals in 2005) while not being in her prime any longer. I think in her prime she would have done quite well under COP. Whether she would have done better or worse depends on which competitors you are referring to mainly.

Fallcolor
07-16-2010, 02:54 AM
Bobek's sequences generally did not have the difficulty one can see in Kwan's. Her individual spirals were absolutely breath-taking though.

I also think Kwan was better at incorporating spirals into choreography than Bobek could.
Bobek didn't include a change of edge, right? Instead she just moved from position to position?

For some reason, the only skater i can think of, that resembles Kwan's spiral, is the one by Caro. Kostner. Neither are flexible skaters but the extension is impressive. The edge is also similar, as well as the fact that they both smile during. :)

And of today's skaters, i think the top ladies are the ones who are the best at incorporating spirals into their programs- they seem to make it 'stand out'/attention grabbing, even if the quality of position is not as great, as say, the younger and less experienced American girls (like Mirai).

Marco
07-16-2010, 03:25 AM
She was just at the end of her carrer physically when COP came around.

Yes. But it was amazing that she was still able to land as many jumps as she did even in 2005. She was still doing lutzes and flips and 3 jump combos at 2005 COI.

Having said that, I doubt she could do much about the spins. She was a clean spinner, with good technique and all, but just doesn't have the ultimate flexibility to go on and on with the features. She did show some new spinning tricks near the end of her skating career but those weren't enough (and the tricks also really affected the quality of the spins which were great in 2003 and 2004).

It's interesting to note that after she retired, ISU brought in more features which were not related to flexibility: holding spirals for 6 seconds; holding a spin position for 8 revs or more etc...