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Triple Butz
07-06-2010, 09:15 AM
Mao had a fall in that 2008 FS so not on the top 10 list for me.


Considering there are only ten championship performances to discuss, that's pretty harsh. That fall must have knocked her into another decade! :lol:

Fallcolor
07-06-2010, 07:00 PM
Her 2003 LP was just perfect. Simple but perfect. Jumps were perfect (except the 3Toe/2Toe), spins were perfect, footwork were perfect. And the crowd : wow, so emotional !
I agree with this to an extent, but thought her 2000 and 2001 worlds LP were the best, as the choreography, jumps and spins of 2003 worlds LP was not as difficult as in 2001. :P Sokolova was doing 3lz+3t in the short and long, (even if cheated) so I was really hoping Kwan would attempt a 3+3, or at least a 3f+2t in replacement of a 3t+2t in the LP. Still, everything was clean, and emotional skating at home, but from a competitive view, some of the elements could have been harder (Not really a fan of Kwan programs after 2001, could have been more choreography, etc...:slinkaway :\

Her 2000 worlds LP would rank high on my list, next to 2001, if only the choreography was harder and the transitions were there. BUT i remember this LP the best because at this LP almost everything was performed with quality. Too bad she took out a bunch of transitions into her jumps that she had in the GP series, (so she could land them in the first half of the program), but after that everything was magical. The highlight for me, was the unique and complex circular stsq- ending with a frog position right into a besti-squat, into a Charlotte!! :eek: It was spine-chilling.

But most of all, this was the first time, i can remember, at this worlds, that her Layback was perfect, (or just about), in regards to the leg position. She was not a flexible skater so this was extra-impressive. Unfortunately i believe it was the last time we saw such this amazing position from her.

piano18
07-07-2010, 12:55 AM
Considering there are only ten championship performances to discuss, that's pretty harsh. That fall must have knocked her into another decade! :lol:

Got that right, sis' :respec:

:lol:

Kwan's 98 EX to Dante's prayer is another of my various favorites from her career, (I like her other EX too, On my own from that season) :swoon: So good skating skills, only she had the special way of translating the musical passages into movement that was so only her own without being at all metronomed, some skaters force an internal metronome in themselves everytime to get through a program ( and that's not always a bad thing!) but not Kwannie though, she was so musical, combined with the skating skills, I sometimes feel like dying watching her!!!

Even if her dumpage of Frank Carroll may or may not (okay, fine maybe it did lol) have hindered her technical advancement I am still in AWE of her longevity in the sport right up to the mid-2000s. I'd like to hear more from her about the dumpage of Frank, I wish interviewers would bring that up more.

minneapolis
07-07-2010, 01:06 AM
1.2009 Kim
2.2000 Kwan
3.2004 Arakawa
4.2001 Kwan
5.2005 Slutskaya
6.2007 Ando
7.2003 Kwan
8.2006 Meissner
9.2008 Asada
10.2002 Slutskaya

amaro
07-14-2010, 09:46 AM
Giving more points to 2000~2003 performances just because they had more triples undermines how difficult the later 2000s programs are compared to the earlier ones due to stiffer technical requirements for all elements. Some of the triples Kwan made back in 2000 or 2002 without a doubt would be subject to harsh DGs if today's tech hawk-eyed specialists overlooked her performances under COP, and she might well have ended up with 4-5 fully credited triples per each performance. While Kwan's performances were fine, if she competed in, say, 2009 with Yuna, Mao, Miki and Joannie, she not only would not have won any medal, but also probably would not have made top 5. I agree with what Mr. Swift once said about Kwan; she does have a great spiral, but her level of artistry is at best about equal as to that of today's top skaters and she significantly falls behind them technically even if we take 1998 Kwan, technically at her peak, for comparison. She never was a technically proficient skater even in her best years.

Overall, I have to put either Yuna '09 or Arakawa '04 at the top for the best winning LP program of the decade. It is a close call because each skater has tremendous qualities that the other does not have. One thing that is for sure to me is that they both have well balanced technicality and artistry. Unlike Kwan, Arakawa proved that she was more than capable of competing under demanding COP's technical requirements by winning the '06 Olympics. In fact, if she competed in 2009 with her Oly winning '06 performance, she probably won the silver.

Others, such as Mao '08, while you gotta give it to her remarkable composure after the fall, was flat and forgettable - all I can remember about the performance is her wicked fall. Besides, Yuna's Miss Saigon won the FS leg, not Mao's, at the '08 Worlds. So was Miki '07; flat as she can be. I liked her '10 Vancouver performance to Cleopatra better than anything she did in the past but that's another story.

I can't decide but I know the choice gotta be between Yuna '09 and Arakawa '04.

museksk8r
07-14-2010, 02:00 PM
Giving more points to 2000~2003 performances just because they had more triples undermines how difficult the later 2000s programs are compared to the earlier ones due to stiffer technical requirements for all elements. Some of the triples Kwan made back in 2000 or 2002 without a doubt would be subject to harsh DGs if today's tech hawk-eyed specialists overlooked her performances under COP, and she might well have ended up with 4-5 fully credited triples per each performance. . . .
Overall, I have to put either Yuna '09 or Arakawa '04 at the top for the best winning LP program of the decade.

:lol:, um, you do realize Arakawa's 3+3s at the 2004 Worlds would very likely have been downgraded had they been judged under COP too, don't you? At least be fair and present the same argument for Kwan and Arakawa being given the benefit of doubt under 6.0 judging where jumps are concerned. ;)


Unlike Kwan, Arakawa proved that she was more than capable of competing under demanding COP's technical requirements by winning the '06 Olympics.

Not to take anything away from Shizuka's Olympic win (trust me, I LOVE THE WOMAN and loved that she won that gold medal! :swoon::cheer2: A win is a win!), but it was hardly a significant accomplishment to win amongst the trainwreck performances we saw in that final flight of skaters in the ladies' LP. Arakawa was the only TOP lady standing at the end of the night when her two main challengers had their worst/nearly worst (Cohen's would come at Worlds in Calgary) performances of the 2006 season.

judgejudy27
07-14-2010, 02:05 PM
The 2006 Olympics was hardly Cohen's worst. You are talking about a lady who couldnt buy a clean long program to save her life ever (excluding her pre contender days). After the fall and the near fall it was probably her best performance ever otherwise. As for Slutskaya she has only put it all together twice ever in a big event, the 2 years she won Worlds, hardly alot for a decade long career at the top. I know you are also a Kwan fan, and I wouldnt say it diminishes Michelle's wins that she many times wins (both domestically and abroad) when Irina or Sasha fall and throw it away, so it shouldnt for Shizuka either. That she was competing against 2 of skatings renowned headcases doesnt take away from the quality of her skating.

museksk8r
07-14-2010, 02:10 PM
The 2006 Olympics was hardly Cohen's worst. You are talking about a lady who couldnt buy a clean long program to save her life ever (excluding her pre contender days). After the fall and the near fall it was probably her best performance ever otherwise. As for Slutskaya she has only put it all together twice ever in a big event, the 2 years she won Worlds, hardly alot for a decade long career at the top. I know you are also a Kwan fan, and I wouldnt say it diminishes Michelle's wins that she many times wins (both domestically and abroad) when Irina or Sasha fall and throw it away, so it shouldnt for Shizuka either. That was competing against 2 of skatings renowned headcases doesnt take away from the quality of her skating.

I love Shizuka! I was referring to the "more than capable of competing under demanding COP's technical requirements by winning the '06 Olympics". I'm sorry, but that was a throw away competition for Shizuka to win and I'm very glad she took advantage of the moment. I was/am so thrilled for her and no one in that event deserved it more than her given the quality of the skating! It was like Kwan's 1998 Worlds win though when Irina and Maria threw it away to her in the SP with their mistakes and when Tara didn't show up to compete. Kwan had 2 major mistakes in her LP and was still able to take advantage and win because she was so far ahead after the SP. The excitement for the viewers is not there when skaters win in that manner. It's also like Lysacek's and Hughes' Olympic wins when so many of their challengers had flawed LP skates. A terrific accomplishment for the skater, yes, but totally forgettable from an audience perspective when considering the whole competition. JMO.

judgejudy27
07-14-2010, 02:14 PM
That Shizuka managed to post 125 points with only a 5 triple free skate (a huge number at the time for so few triples) was a large part of what put pressure on Irina and caused her to implode. And she got that very high score for the time with only 5 triples by mastering COP technical requirements very well I would think. Shizuka skated before her, she had no idea how Irina would skate, but she had to set a tough benchmark to beat which inspite of only 5 triples she did. Sasha before her did what anyone reasonable would have probably expected from her in a long program (if not better).

Womens skating at the top level is very rarely a flawless duel at the top. It is the exception rather than the rule. 96 Worlds and 98 Olympics being examples of the exception.

museksk8r
07-14-2010, 02:27 PM
The 2006 Olympics was hardly Cohen's worst. You are talking about a lady who couldnt buy a clean long program to save her life ever (excluding her pre contender days). After the fall and the near fall it was probably her best performance ever otherwise.

B-B-BUTT Sasha was hyped and marketed by Mr. Nicks and skating commentator "experts" as "the most talented skater in the world" and as such, she shouldn't be judged under her own reasonable, imperfect, inconsistent expectations, but instead from a consistent, flawless ideal of what a perfect skater should be. ;) :P

judgejudy27
07-14-2010, 02:44 PM
B-B-BUTT Sasha was hyped and marketed by Mr. Nicks and skating commentator "experts" as "the most talented skater in the world" and as such, she shouldn't be judged under her own reasonable, imperfect, inconsistent expectations, but instead from a consistent, flawless ideal of what a perfect skater should be. ;) :P

Sasha with overhyped. That is the bottom line. Her competitive record speaks for itself, she is barely beyond Fumie Suguri. And it not like her basic skating or athleticsm transcends her medal count as if she were Trixi Schuba or Midori Ito. She was a skater with wonderful positions, flexability, spins, and spirals, who was a mediocre (at best) jumper, slow, had poor basics, and never skated cleanly. And her choreography was hit or mess.

attyfan
07-14-2010, 02:59 PM
... . Unlike Kwan, Arakawa proved that she was more than capable of competing under demanding COP's technical requirements by winning the '06 Olympics. ...

While Arakawa had a long career, the physical strain on Kwan would include triple jumps for 70+ COI shows a season (during the post whack boom) for around ten years. If Arakawa had been under the same physical demands as Kwan, I doubt that Arakawa would have been any more competitive in '06 than Kwan -- and for the same reason. The human body simply is not built to take the physical strain of that many jumps.

museksk8r
07-14-2010, 03:09 PM
While Arakawa had a long career, the physical strain on Kwan would include triple jumps for 70+ COI shows a season (during the post whack boom) for around ten years. If Arakawa had been under the same physical demands as Kwan, I doubt that Arakawa would have been any more competitive in '06 than Kwan -- and for the same reason. The human body simply is not built to take the physical strain of that many jumps.

Very valid point! I'm glad that as a skating fan I was able to witness both of these fine women achieve the great success they did in the sport. What :glamor: role models they both are!

Satellitegirl
07-14-2010, 03:53 PM
I'd rank them:

2000: Michelle Kwan, Red Violin (first two are practically a tie...I always switch between them as favorites)

2001: Michelle Kwan, Song of the Black Swan

2003: Michelle Kwan, Aranjuez

2004: Shizuka Arakawa, Turandot

2008: Mao Asada, Fantasie-Impromptu

2009: Yu-na Kim, Scheherezade

2002: Irina Slutskaya, Carmen

2005: Irina Slutskaya, Queen of Spades

2006: Kimmie Meissner, Queen of Sheba

2007: Miki Ando, Mendelssohn Concerto

iarispiralllyof
07-14-2010, 05:39 PM
Giving more points to 2000~2003 performances just because they had more triples undermines how difficult the later 2000s programs are compared to the earlier ones due to stiffer technical requirements for all elements.

confused why this matters. Ladies like Joannie still attempted 7 triples. I think most of us do consider the differences between COP's demands vs 6.0 and we can still look at how individual elements in 6.0 programs were performed to get a feel for how they might be judged under COP. whatever, in general 6.0 programs flowed way more and looked more unique/individual



Some of the triples Kwan made back in 2000 or 2002 without a doubt would be subject to harsh DGs if today's tech hawk-eyed specialists overlooked her performances under COP, and she might well have ended up with 4-5 fully credited triples per each performance.

As if Shizuka's triple=triples weren't underrotated. This applies to everyone. Michelle usually fully rotated her triples except sometimes during 3-3 combinations



While Kwan's performances were fine, if she competed in, say, 2009 with Yuna, Mao, Miki and Joannie, she not only would not have won any medal, but also probably would not have made top 5.

you can't seriously compare two very different skating system performances. Which is why this thread is more about personal preference than anything.




I agree with what Mr. Swift once said about Kwan; she does have a great spiral, but her level of artistry is at best about equal as to that of today's top skaters and she significantly falls behind them technically even if we take 1998 Kwan, technically at her peak, for comparison. She never was a technically proficient skater even in her best years.

there's no point in even arguing artistry. it's subjective. what does "about equal to today's skaters" even mean, which top skaters, how many of them? top 3? top 5? top 10?

actually michelle was always a technically proficient skater. she's one of the most consistent ladies in the history of the sport and I think some kwan fan put together a comparison list of statistics that might prove michelle possibly put together the most 7 triple programs in competition ever, or at least she's among the top few ladies that have done so. she was also known for doing a second triple lutz at the near end of her programs. besides her spirals and consistent jumps with solid technique michelle often had some of the best footwork of all the ladies and basic skating skills/edging. her spins were her weakest asset and even those she learned to significantly improve around 2000.



Unlike Kwan, Arakawa proved that she was more than capable of competing under demanding COP's technical requirements by winning the '06 Olympics. In fact, if she competed in 2009 with her Oly winning '06 performance, she probably won the silver.

O_o she had a long career in which she was extremely inconsistent and peaked at the right time. I find it so strange how ppl pick and choose when to be picky about under-rotated triple-triples. as much as I love her skating, most of shizuka's career was nothing to write home about until the end.

I don't get why there's this general feeling that michelle declined due to COP. by the time of 2005 worlds, she was entering a decade into her figure skating career and would obviously be on decline. her body was wrought with injuries. her performance at 05 worlds was HARDLY anywhere near her best yet she was still extremely close to 3rd place. Her program in terms of construction wasn't even quite fine tuned for COP nor did she understand COP's complex levels completely at that point (most people didn't either, at that point). To say that if Michelle were at her peak in 98 she would not even be top five today (with all of the levels for COP taken care of) is simply a joke to me considering how close she was in 2005 when she was far from her peak . If she tweaked everything to fit COP levels, in terms of grade of execution Michelle always had top notch spirals, footwork and consistent jumps with good technique. Even her spins would get decent scores if she knew how to play the system. Of course, without a triple-triple she would have a hard time beating a clean Mao or Yu-na, but we're talking about something that's only imaginary: Michelle at her peak form in 2010. She only ever completed a 3 toe 3 toe in competition which wouldn't have been enough but she'd claimed to have landed 3 lutz-3 toe consistently in practice, was watched by peggy fleming landing a 3 sal - 3 loop in practice at 01 worlds, was claimed to have landed a 3loop-3loop in front of tara lipinski during practice, and even tried a 3 lutz - triple loop in competition (which although was an utter failure, showed that she probably had at least been landing them in practice, frank carroll only allowed her to perform elements in comp that she landed 80 percent of the time in practice)

Of course none of this practice stuff or stories of what could have been even matter. but if we're talking about something as imaginary as michelle at her peak (98 or so) in 2010 then..