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judgejudy27
06-25-2010, 11:31 PM
It depends on whether you credit Sarah's jumps. She flutzed and under-rotated at least one of her 3-3's. But Yu Na is the best of the three, IMO. Can there be any argument? A perfect program with a difficult 3-3, 6 triples, all well-executed, good artistry.

Competitively speaking it is true Kim from Vancouver would destroy any other World or Olympic winning performance this decade, especialy under COP. I am not sure if that all people are judging on though.

FSfanatic
06-26-2010, 02:34 AM
Ando in 2007 and Asada in 2008 did not even win the lp.

Nor did Asada win the LP this year en route to her 2nd title.

Including Asada's 2010 win, I'd have it:

1-Kwan 2001
2-Asada 2010
3-Arakawa 2004
3-Kwan 2000
4-Slutskaya 2005
5-Kwan 2003
6-Kim 2009
7-Asada 2008
8-Ando 2007
9-Messnier 2006
10-Slutskaya 2002

stillalive
06-27-2010, 01:11 PM
Come on. The flip and second lutz were both cheated by about a quarter turn. The second 3toe in the 3/3 was also slightly cheated but within the acceptable range. Her jumps in 2001 were all around not as strong as her 2000 jumps or her jumps in 2003-4.

But I recall that she had had a problem with her skates just before taking the ice for the long program, so it wasn't really a question of technique quality.

falling_dance
06-27-2010, 01:37 PM
But I recall that she had had a problem with her skates just before taking the ice for the long program

I think that happened before the qualifying round skate.

stillalive
06-27-2010, 06:49 PM
ops my bad then ;)

olympic
06-29-2010, 12:52 AM
Johnny Come Lately [me]. I found this hard to rank because my top 4 are verrryyy close to one another. I did add the Olympic performances and '10 Worlds

- Kim '10 [Vancouver] - just perfect. Basics make up for lack of a 3loop
1. Arakawa '04 - beauty, power and fluidity (even if she ur'd the 3t of the opening 3-3-2, that was a pioneering move!)
- Asada '10 [Torino] - 2 3x's and otherwise great execution, but to music not quite suited to her. She did finally make it work.
2. Kwan '01 - Kwan clean and at her best IMO, but slightly less ambitious than Arakawa.
3. Slutskaya '05 - most powerful of them all, but 3peated the 3loop, didn't she? Also, choreography was a little less than Kwan or Arakawa [feeding the chickens].
4. Kwan '00 - nice and strong but a little emptier than other programs by Kwan.
5. Asada '08 - didn't achieve take-off on the opening 3x but otherwise great.
6. Kim '09 - lack of edge jumps puts her lower IMO than where she could've been on my list, even if her basics otherwise were phenomenal.
7. Ando '07 - OK. She deserves credit for the great jumps but I found the choreography a little clunky and forced to overused music, her sit spin was not that great, and her spiral was too strained.
- Arakawa '06 [Torino] - nice, but a little too safe.
8. Kwan '03 - I'm in the minority, but this LP never did much for me. She was obviously beginning to dial it back at this stage in the career.
9. Meissner '06 - Good for her and the execution of some major triples, but the technique and the non-jump elements were just a little subpar.
- Hughes '02 [SLC] - In retrospect, not that great even if inspired.
10. Slutskaya '02 - I thought this performance was just safe and otherwise unmemorable, dialed back from other attempts.

judgejudy27
06-29-2010, 01:29 AM
Honestly I dont think hardly anyone would rank Kwan's 2003 Worlds title performance high on this list if Worlds werent in the U.S and the emotion created by the crowd and the moment made it seem like something far more extraordinary then it was. I am baffled how ANYONE thinks it is even close to her 2000 and 2001 World winning LPs, let alone better. Kwan's 2000 and 2001 winning LPs both had 7 triples, some huge jumps, a triple-triple, all out attack and speed, and so far better and more complex choreography than her 2003 program. Her 2003 program had far less jumps wise, far less choreography wise, less difficult non jump elements, less speed and convicition, and was somehow the best of the 3? She was clearly injured by that point and had to scale back her jumps, non jump elements, and choreography the remainder of her career. I just dont get it. And in 2000 and 2001 she actually had a real task ahead of her to win the title, she had Slutskaya favored over her in 2001, and Butyrskaya and Slutskaya to both pass in 2000, and she had to skate lights out to even have a shot of winning and helped to inspire such phenomenal skates those nights. The 2003 situation was nothing like that, she basically had to stay upright to ensure winning, it was basically a home country Kwan lovefest, and with Slutskaya having a bad year and out of Worlds and Cohen dropping back out of gold contention from even the Q round there was no real threat to her.

Dont get me wrong, her 2003 World winning LP was still great and she fully deserved to win that year, but I actually think it is one of the weaker ones of this list, and doesnt even come close to her own 2000 and 2001 winning LP's, Slutskaya's 2005 or Arakawa's 2004 winning LPs, Kim's 2009 and Asada's 2010 winning or gold winning LP's at Worlds and Olympics.

smarts1
06-29-2010, 02:48 AM
Honestly I dont think hardly anyone would rank Kwan's 2003 Worlds title performance high on this list if Worlds werent in the U.S and the emotion created by the crowd and the moment made it seem like something far more extraordinary then it was. I am baffled how ANYONE thinks it is even close to her 2000 and 2001 World winning LPs, let alone better. Kwan's 2000 and 2001 winning LPs both had 7 triples, some huge jumps, a triple-triple, all out attack and speed, and so far better and more complex choreography than her 2003 program. Her 2003 program had far less jumps wise, far less choreography wise, less difficult non jump elements, less speed and convicition, and was somehow the best of the 3? She was clearly injured by that point and had to scale back her jumps, non jump elements, and choreography the remainder of her career. I just dont get it. And in 2000 and 2001 she actually had a real task ahead of her to win the title, she had Slutskaya favored over her in 2001, and Butyrskaya and Slutskaya to both pass in 2000, and she had to skate lights out to even have a shot of winning and helped to inspire such phenomenal skates those nights. The 2003 situation was nothing like that, she basically had to stay upright to ensure winning, it was basically a home country Kwan lovefest, and with Slutskaya having a bad year and out of Worlds and Cohen dropping back out of gold contention from even the Q round there was no real threat to her.

Dont get me wrong, her 2003 World winning LP was still great and she fully deserved to win that year, but I actually think it is one of the weaker ones of this list, and doesnt even come close to her own 2000 and 2001 winning LP's, Slutskaya's 2005 or Arakawa's 2004 winning LPs, Kim's 2009 and Asada's 2010 winning or gold winning LP's at Worlds and Olympics.

... No offense to anybody (or Kwan), but I never understood the Kwan hype. She had some great short programs that I really liked (Rachmaninoff, East of Eden), but to me, most of her long programs were just okay and sometimes bleh (since her programs got worse post 2002). To me, it always looked like she was skating back and forth across the rink, and there was nothing that really stood out in her skating like a Midori Ito or a Natalie Krieg...

But that's just my opinion...

Marco
06-29-2010, 05:07 AM
I am baffled how ANYONE thinks it is even close to her 2000 and 2001 World winning LPs, let alone better. Kwan's 2000 and 2001 winning LPs both had 7 triples, some huge jumps, a triple-triple, all out attack and speed, and so far better and more complex choreography than her 2003 program. Her 2003 program had far less jumps wise, far less choreography wise, less difficult non jump elements, less speed and convicition, and was somehow the best of the 3? She was clearly injured by that point and had to scale back her jumps, non jump elements, and choreography the remainder of her career. I just dont get it.

Kwan's 2000 lp was a technical display. Good speed, strong jumps, slowish spins but great footwork. By Worlds the program was basically stripped of any major transitions (used to have steps before 3sal, 3flip and final 3lutz) but still had some great choreography and expression.

Kwan's 2001 lp was the most beautiful and complex but again some triples were flawed. She still had good speed but was probably the slowest out of 2000, 2001 and 2003, some strong jumps, complex and beautiful spins, but had the simplest footwork in all of Kwan's programs.

Kwan's 2003 lp was the simplest technically but all triples were perfect. She carried the most flow across the program and didn't rest at all. Spins were simple but fast. The program was as simple as TRV in Nice but she made use of the music and choreography really well. She possibly had the most sincere expression in this skate since 1998.

judgejudy27
06-29-2010, 05:27 AM
I dont think Kwan's 2003 Worlds winning LP would have even won the 2000 or 2001 Worlds. With her 2003 Worlds winning LP in 2000 she would have been placed 2nd to Slutskaya in the LP which would have placed her 3rd overall behind Slutskaya and Butyrskaya (the short program winner), whereas in 2001 she would have won the silver behind Slutskaya. Granted I know this isnt just about how they stack up competitively (atleast I dont think it is) but Kwan's 2003 World winning performance wouldnt have even been enough to win in years like 2000 and 2001.

IceJunkie
06-29-2010, 05:57 AM
Kwan's post-2001 LPs were underwhelming. Not a whole lot on choreography, but this has been rehashed so many times its unbelievable. She was injured, she wasn't able to move as well, etc, etc. We all know this. I was never a huge Aranjuez fan. But she did lay it down and skated brilliantly at 2003 Worlds. Along with Tosca at the 04' Nats, it wasn't the program so much as the passion and energy she had during her SLF and the fact she landed her jumps that made it so great. Boring choreo though.

I love Kwan, but I give credit where credit is due. Kim's LP in Vancouver was hands down, the best LP ever given by a woman at the Olympics or Worlds this decade.

Marco
06-29-2010, 07:40 AM
I dont think Kwan's 2003 Worlds winning LP would have even won the 2000 or 2001 Worlds. With her 2003 Worlds winning LP in 2000 she would have been placed 2nd to Slutskaya in the LP which would have placed her 3rd overall behind Slutskaya and Butyrskaya (the short program winner), whereas in 2001 she would have won the silver behind Slutskaya. Granted I know this isnt just about how they stack up competitively (atleast I dont think it is) but Kwan's 2003 World winning performance wouldnt have even been enough to win in years like 2000 and 2001.

I prefer Kwan's 2000 Worlds lp the most from a competitive standpoint but enjoyed her 2001 and 2003 Worlds lp much more.

I think with her 2003 Worlds lp she could probably beat Slutskaya's lackluster Carmen in 2000 Worlds but might not be able to beat Slutskaya's sloppy DQ at 2001 Worlds simply because it looked like Slutskaya's program was too much more difficult. The slight cheat on her 3toe3toe was overlooked because it was 6.0 and because Slutskaya/s 3/3s were even more cheated.

judgejudy27
06-29-2010, 12:34 PM
I prefer Kwan's 2000 Worlds lp the most from a competitive standpoint but enjoyed her 2001 and 2003 Worlds lp much more.

I think with her 2003 Worlds lp she could probably beat Slutskaya's lackluster Carmen in 2000 Worlds but might not be able to beat Slutskaya's sloppy DQ at 2001 Worlds simply because it looked like Slutskaya's program was too much more difficult. The slight cheat on her 3toe3toe was overlooked because it was 6.0 and because Slutskaya/s 3/3s were even more cheated.

At the 2000 Worlds even with the program she actually skated the judges gave Irina higher technical marks and she won only on a split decision, and won most of the judges she got on tiebreaks. So no I dont think with 6 triples and no triple-triple the same panel would have placed her over Irina. Of course Worlds were in Europe and most of the panel that year were from Europe.

lexeoe
06-29-2010, 02:00 PM
At the 2000 Worlds even with the program she actually skated the judges gave Irina higher technical marks and she won only on a split decision, and won most of the judges she got on tiebreaks. So no I dont think with 6 triples and no triple-triple the same panel would have placed her over Irina. Of course Worlds were in Europe and most of the panel that year were from Europe.

add to the fact that she went first in the skate order hence the lower mark. she probably would've gotten 5.8's for technical merit had she skated let's say 3rd or 4th.

giselle23
06-29-2010, 08:00 PM
.

I love Kwan, but I give credit where credit is due. Kim's LP in Vancouver was hands down, the best LP ever given by a woman at the Olympics or Worlds this decade.

And reasonable minds can differ! I put Kwan's 2001 World's LP and maybe her 2000 World's LP above Kim's Olympic program, not factoring in for the pressure of the Olympics. Michelle did 7 triples and all of the different types of triples. Her command of the ice in 2001 is as good as it gets. But I really don't think you can fairly compare Olympics performances with Worlds or other performances, because the Olympics adds its own set of pressures. Most Olympic gold-winning performances, by the ladies at least, have not been perfect. Yu Na's program was and certainly among Olympic performances it ranks at or near the top.