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Really
12-28-2009, 12:26 AM
I hope you don't need people on an internet board to tell you how fcuked up a viewpoint that is.Um...she said it was her MIL`s POV, and she never did say what she thought of it.

AYS
12-28-2009, 12:37 AM
Um...she said it was her MIL`s POV, and she never did say what she thought of it.
She did ask our views on the matter:

I'd be interested to hear other views on this opinion.
And my view is, I hope she doesn't need our view to know that it's a fcuked up view (IMO).

Prancer
12-28-2009, 12:40 AM
Maybe Jenny just wanted to know how many other people shared the view.

FTR, I think it's a really f*cked up viewpoint. But there are a lot of people on this board and off it who express ideas that I think are representative of a pretty f*cked up viewpoint, so I don't know that you can rule out anything just because it seems really messed up to you.

AYS
12-28-2009, 01:01 AM
Prancer, I don't quite know what you mean by not ruling something out just because it seems messed up to me. Rule it out in what way? Do you mean:

1) not ruling it out as a sensible or non-f*cked up viewpoint: yes, IMO I can rule it out as sensible or non-f*cked up, IMO. ;)
2) not ruling it out as being a viewpoint held by others: you are right there, I can't rule it out there, for whatever that's worth. That wouldn't change my opinion though.
3) not ruling it out from a legal standpoint. I would certainly hope it doesn't have a legal leg to stand on, but, heck, we voted a fool in as president of the US back in the late '90s, so I'm not sure I can depend on individual judges to not be fools either, so....

Prancer
12-28-2009, 01:06 AM
2) not ruling it out as being a viewpoint held by others: you are right there, I can't rule it out there, for whatever that's worth. That wouldn't change my opinion though.

I wouldn't expect it to. But I also wouldn't be at all surprised if people on a messageboard didn't necessarily tell Jenny what a f*cked up idea it is, either.

laurenjm
12-28-2009, 01:09 AM
Do you think going after your skirt chasing husband with a golf club wanting to beat his brains in, ISN'T going to affect the kids?

Actions speak louder than words!

AYS
12-28-2009, 01:21 AM
Do you think going after your skirt chasing husband with a golf club wanting to beat his brains in, ISN'T going to affect the kids?

Actions speak louder than words!
Actually, for perhaps the once and only time ever, I agree with you. If this is what Elin did (and it sounds from reports it is), then I would probably support legal action to take the kids away from her.

bek
12-28-2009, 02:06 AM
Actually, for perhaps the once and only time ever, I agree with you. If this is what Elin did (and it sounds from reports it is), then I would probably support legal action to take the kids away from her.

While I don't think that what Elin did was okay... As LONG as it was a one time thing I don't think she should lose her kids for it. (Now a repetitive thing is another story).

And I disagree with the idea that Tiger's actions aren't harmful to the kids. Trust me I think they can be. It first of all hurt their mother, second set a really bad example. I mean Tiger's father was a philanderer, and now he is....There's a pattern there.

My father was in and out of relationships, and because of it, I think my brothers and I all have commitment issues. This being said, I don't think that Tiger shouldn't get to see his kids. But I definetly think that Elin should get something in there are about him not bring the many girls around his kids. Because introducing them to tons of chicks could be really damaging. I.e maybe something like only an engagement can the kids met the girl or something like that.

marbri
12-28-2009, 12:16 PM
Actually, for perhaps the once and only time ever, I agree with you. If this is what Elin did (and it sounds from reports it is), then I would probably support legal action to take the kids away from her.

I'd like to think you'd wait to see if she had a history of abuse and not take her children away on an isolated incident of her loosing it to the point of swinging a golf club. And if she did have a history of abuse how does that reflect on her husband who would leave her alone with those children while he not only travelled to play golf but travelled to get laid. His actions don't indicate he was worried about her being alone with those kids imo.

Aceon6
12-28-2009, 01:48 PM
I'd like to think you'd wait to see if she had a history of abuse ...

Nothing on the PGA grapevine to indicate Elin has a problem. This appears to be an isolated incident. Frankly, I can see myself whacking him, but I would have chosen a wedge for the heavier swing weight!

Jenny
12-28-2009, 03:08 PM
Well, I'm with all of you, and told my MIL that in no uncertain terms :)

Like many of you have said, Tiger is clearly a bad husband, but there's no evidence to indicate that he's also a bad father. MIL's argument was that by being a bad husband, he's hurt the children's mother (including during pregnancy), and that makes him a bad father.

I said I don't think it's right to punish the children for what happened between their parents - depriving them of a father they might very well love, and then giving them the uphill challenge of developing a relationship with a virtual stranger five years later. (Because this was her big thing - that at their age, so young, they need to be with their mother - a happy mother - above all else.)

I did try it the other way - citing an example known to both of us of a woman who cheated on her husband, then left him and married the new guy, breaking her first husband's heart in the process. Should she have been cut off from her schoolage children? I said no, because in spite of everything, she's a great mother, and ten years later, her children are well adjusted and mature and happy. This is when MIL countered that it's because Tiger's children are so young that it's so important they and their mother are protected from the influence of eville.

There's also the issue of the grandparents. Tiger's mother was part of their lives, and now all of a sudden they don't get to see Grandma anymore? The grandparent relationship can be very valuable to children, and given that it won't be one they enjoy throughout their lives, it would be awful to take away 5 years of it.

(I didn't suggest this one to MIL as I didn't want to draw attention to the fact that I have neglected to give her grandchildren - but maybe I should have asked her how she'd feel if her hypothetical grandchildren were cut off from her sons and therefore her too for the first 5 years of their lives. She no doubt would have discarded the argument based on the idea that her sons are :saint:)

On the idea of taking the kids to Sweden where it's a friendlier environment, I'm not so sure. If the kids are surrounded by Elin's family and friends and the general population most of the time, they could easily turn against their father. Even when the parents manage to keep their battle away from the children, others are often not as careful.

On the point of Elin's attack with the golf club, I do think that's worth discussing. We should absolutely not condemn her based on one incident, particularly when it seems she had a lot to be pissed off at (I myself have thrown the odd object in the general direction of hubby for far lesser offenses!).

However, if we are to imagine for a moment that their behaviour that night was indicative of how they react to conflict or crisis - do we prefer the kids to be with the person who attempted to walk away, perhaps to cool down or give the other person time to do so, or the person who resorted to violence? If I was the judge, I'd want to know a bit more about how Tiger and Elin have dealt with issues in the past, and what that could mean for the future.

Thank you for all your interesting inputs on this. :)

Jenny
12-28-2009, 03:11 PM
I hope you don't need people on an internet board to tell you how fcuked up a viewpoint that is.

And no, I don't! I just wanted to get other opinions and inputs into it because I was interested first to see if anyone shared her viewpoint, and second to delve further into the more complicated aspects of the idea.

It was actually a good conversation with MIL, because we naturally also got into the other major cases of celebrity philandering, including Clinton and Prince Charles. Aside from the :watch: aspect of it all, I find it interesting to take these high profile examples/cases and dissect them to discuss the broader implications for society and the rest of us. (We did this on the Polanski thread too not long ago, and I found it really fascinating.)

laurenjm
12-28-2009, 03:59 PM
Actually, for perhaps the once and only time ever, I agree with you. If this is what Elin did (and it sounds from reports it is), then I would probably support legal action to take the kids away from her.

Who knew! :40beers: :lol:

laurenjm
12-28-2009, 04:02 PM
Jenny, they are both to blame in this. Tiger certainly is a bad husband and most likely an absent and not so good father, his life dictates this. Elin also is at fault for her behavior.

We do not know what really happened behind their doors despite what other's say.

PDilemma
12-28-2009, 04:26 PM
According to an old SI article about Elin, Tiger refused to go to Sweden with her for their daughter's baptism claiming he had to be in Vegas for a charity event. Of course, the article then drooled over his messianic commitment to charity work, but knowing what we know now, he probably was more interested in something else in Vegas.

I'm thinking he's not up for world's greatest father anytime soon. Sounds more like he's an absentee father. On a professional level, that's a necessity, but some of his absences are clearly not professional obligations. That doesn't mean he should be removed from his children's lives entirely, but I think there's little argument for giving him custody.

And is at all realistic to think that either Tiger or Elin or anyone else ever spends a significant amount of time alone with those kids? People of their station are usually surrounded by an army of nannies and personal assistants and it is silly to think that Tiger Woods is so down to earth and what-not that they don't have that.